Palestinian statehood, to early, or about time?

[Steve Levin]

All this overlooks some very significant issues and realities.

The PA has twice been offered 95% of what it wants, in 2000 and again in 2008. Both times they walked away from the table and launched more attacks on Israeli civilians. Not military targets, not people attacking them, but civilians in their towns.

If we're honest, isn't the PA's "it has to be everything we want or we cannot have any agreement" a bit extremist? Honestly, more than a bit.

And when it comes to borders, let's not forget that the Green Line, the 1949 armistice borders, don't represent any real borders. They merely represent the point at which Israel fought the invading Arab armies to a halt. It certainly doesn't carry any historical weight beyond that, so the extremist insistence of "inch perfect" adherence to that armistice line is really nothing more than another specific stalling point in bringing peace to the region.

And before anyone jumps in around "how Israel has stalled peace talks" let's recall that from 1949 until the 1967 war (again, launched with the intent of destroying Israel) the "West Bank" region was controlled not by Israel, but by Jordan. Jordan *could* have allowed the establishment of an Arab Palestine at any time during those 18 years. After all, so go the claims, that land rightfully belong to Arab Palestine.

Jordan not only didn't allow the establishment of an Arab Palestine, they annexed the land and claimed it for themselves! It wasn't until 1988 -- almost 40 years after the 1949 Armistice -- that Jordan renounced its claims to the West Bank.

Remember that it was Jewish Palestine that accepted the highly unfavorable to them 1948 partition.
-> The Arab nations had no interest in borders and a Jewish Palestine as a state in any form and went to war.

It was the Jewish state that asked for real borders and peace in 1949 even though the Green Line wasn't much better.
-> The Arab nations had no interest in peace and borders, or an Arab Palestine, and launched wars in 1967 and 1973 (on the holiest day of the Jewish calendar, no less)

It is within the Jewish state that over a million Arabs live today
-> The Arab nations expelled their Jewish populations with little more than they could carry on their backs.

Sure, in the lens of most recent history we only see Israel forcibly remove citizens from Gaza and hand it over to the PA. And see them attempt to hand over 95% of the West Bank (but let's face it, what a security nightmare that would be given Gaza's example). In exchange for, well, nothing. No working peace. Some will claim "de facto recognition" as if some vaguely worded statements that are denied at every turn are the moral equivalent of the real, tangible actions Israel has taken. Even aside from actions one cannot even get a simple sentence "we recognize Israel as a Jewish State" from the PA.

Beyond that, realistically, is Palestine even remotely a state? Currently, they engage in warfare on civilian targets in Israel. They cannot control the West Bank in the slightest. They are, in reality, a terrorist hotbed of activity (unless one claims that the attacks are in fact being directed by the Authority, which would be even more heinous) that has been tolerated simply because Israel has tried to to fan the flames more than needed. (doubt that? Picture all the suicide bomber and rocket attacks happening to any other country and there would be significant military action against that terrorist base of activity)

Peace and prosperity requires real work and commitment from the PA. Simply demanding statehood whilst ignoring the true foundations of it simply leads to "Peace for our time."

Steve

 

[nomix]

I think some effective nation-building institutions need to be in place before the Palestinians receive nation status. Hamas, Fatah and the PA are corrupt ineffective pieces of shit that need to be replaced with organizations like those the Zionists put together before independence.

I suggest some reading up on what the PA under Salam Fayyad has been doing. While Hamas is still a bunch of bastards, Salam Fayyad and Fatah has become something different.

Whether you agree with Zionism or not, the Zionist system of social organizations like the farming cooperatives and welfare authorities was the only way that Israel could maintain momentum when it was a young country. If the Palestinians don't work together on creating similar institutions they'll fall back in to sectarian struggle that is worse than before. Don't say that Israel is prohibiting this because it isn't and Palestinians across the world with their bizarre UNRWA refugee status receive benefits that can pay for these programs. With these programs underway, Israel can view the palestinians as a proper partner for peace because they'll have something to work towards in a real framework rather than complaining that it hadn't been fair in the past and that Israel ought to shell out for these efforts.

They are working on getting an agreement with Hamas, and while Israel hasn't went to war over it, they have been absolutely furious the PA is working to patch it up with Hamas.

In regard to the situation with Egypt, especially the embassy: If Israel had made conscious efforts to protect the embassy the Egyptians would have complained that they did so in the wrong way and set Israel back even farther.

That's indeed true. Egypt should protect the Israeli embassy. End.

Also, Turkey should shut the fuck up and deal because soon both Israel and Turkey are going to have problems with Syria.

I don't think so, actually. And I like Turkey to make sense on Israel, for once.

All this overlooks some very significant issues and realities.

The PA has twice been offered 95% of what it wants, in 2000 and again in 2008. Both times they walked away from the table and launched more attacks on Israeli civilians. Not military targets, not people attacking them, but civilians in their towns.

I'll let you have your own body, every bit of it. Except I'll cut off one of your toes. And I'm deciding which.

If we're honest, isn't the PA's "it has to be everything we want or we cannot have any agreement" a bit extremist? Honestly, more than a bit.

If we're honest, no. They're willing to talk the moment Israel freeze settlement building. Which is so reasonable, it's mind boggingly moronic not to do so!

And when it comes to borders, let's not forget that the Green Line, the 1949 armistice borders, don't represent any real borders. They merely represent the point at which Israel fought the invading Arab armies to a halt. It certainly doesn't carry any historical weight beyond that, so the extremist insistence of "inch perfect" adherence to that armistice line is really nothing more than another specific stalling point in bringing peace to the region.

And before anyone jumps in around "how Israel has stalled peace talks" let's recall that from 1949 until the 1967 war (again, launched with the intent of destroying Israel) the "West Bank" region was controlled not by Israel, but by Jordan. Jordan *could* have allowed the establishment of an Arab Palestine at any time during those 18 years. After all, so go the claims, that land rightfully belong to Arab Palestine.

Jordan not only didn't allow the establishment of an Arab Palestine, they annexed the land and claimed it for themselves! It wasn't until 1988 -- almost 40 years after the 1949 Armistice -- that Jordan renounced its claims to the West Bank.

Remember that it was Jewish Palestine that accepted the highly unfavorable to them 1948 partition.
-> The Arab nations had no interest in borders and a Jewish Palestine as a state in any form and went to war.

It was the Jewish state that asked for real borders and peace in 1949 even though the Green Line wasn't much better.
-> The Arab nations had no interest in peace and borders, or an Arab Palestine, and launched wars in 1967 and 1973 (on the holiest day of the Jewish calendar, no less)

First of all, no one's talking about the 1948 borders for a reason. Because it's reasonable, it's practical. Israel was built on the borders pre1967. Second of all, I think it's absolutely rotten to even consider what a totalitarian Middle East Monarch decided in the 1940s, so I won't. Palestinians aren't Jordanians any more than I'm Swedish.

It's funny you talk of the partition plan as unfavorable, I did some math on it once. In every quantifiable measure, the Jewish part of partitioned Palestine was either larger, or contained more goodies, from water to coast line to good farm land. So you're talking out your arse on that one.

It is within the Jewish state that over a million Arabs live today
-> The Arab nations expelled their Jewish populations with little more than they could carry on their backs.

That was wrong. And it's still wrong. It doesn't justify opression of the people of a future state of Palestine. As for expulsion, you'll find Jews in Egypt, if not many.

Sure, in the lens of most recent history we only see Israel forcibly remove citizens from Gaza and hand it over to the PA. And see them attempt to hand over 95% of the West Bank (but let's face it, what a security nightmare that would be given Gaza's example). In exchange for, well, nothing. No working peace. Some will claim "de facto recognition" as if some vaguely worded statements that are denied at every turn are the moral equivalent of the real, tangible actions Israel has taken. Even aside from actions one cannot even get a simple sentence "we recognize Israel as a Jewish State" from the PA.

Israel has no claim, right or ownership to a single spot of the West Bank. In the process of gaining security, Israel made a fence/wall. Which I suppose would be fine and dandy if they built in on their own territory. In a lot of cases, they didn't. Palestinian villages was cut in two outside Israeli territory, to put ot that way. I suppose I could live with the wall if it wasn't a mean to expand de facto Israeli territory on the West Bank.

I'd also like to point out you're talking about the time under Arafat. Who is a good symbol, but who was a poor leader in peace. Abbas is different. Salam Fayyad is different. And if we want to go down the annals of history, Israel has even elected a terrorist as prime minister, and Netanyahu even talks to his supporters of purposefully destroying the peace process in the 90s.

Beyond that, realistically, is Palestine even remotely a state? Currently, they engage in warfare on civilian targets in Israel. They cannot control the West Bank in the slightest. They are, in reality, a terrorist hotbed of activity (unless one claims that the attacks are in fact being directed by the Authority, which would be even more heinous) that has been tolerated simply because Israel has tried to to fan the flames more than needed. (doubt that? Picture all the suicide bomber and rocket attacks happening to any other country and there would be significant military action against that terrorist base of activity)

They? You're talking about Hamas. I'm talking about the PA. If you look at the West Bank, you perhaps didn't know that IDF sources go as far as saying PA security forces are more efficiant at stopping terror attacks on Israeli civilians in the areas they control than the IDF is in areas they control. Which makes sense.

The only real problem with Palestine as a state right now is Hamas. Pity Israel will penalise anyone talking to them, might do some good. But that would be losing all important face.

Peace and prosperity requires real work and commitment from the PA. Simply demanding statehood whilst ignoring the true foundations of it simply leads to "Peace for our time."

Steve

Yes, remember the misrable failure of the Good Friday peace accord in Northern Ireland. What really worked was the 40 years prior, just as the last 60 years have been very efficiant in securing peace for Israel.

 

[NoNeedForAChestWig]

A few fairly random thoughts:

I agree that if Palestinans can't/won't/are not allowed to (delete according to your personal opinion) live meaningful lives as citizens of Israel they should have their own country, and it is high bloody time they had that.

Right, wrongs, and opinions on both sides be damned. You (Israelis and Palestinians) have behaved absolutely disgustingly to one another. They need to put all of that to one side.

If the leaders of the Arab nations are so concerned with the plight of the Palestinians there's enough damned land around to give them a homeland without bothering Israel. Not ideal, but better than Israelis and Palestinians killing each other.

Israel should give up this stupid "Jewish state for Jewish people" crap. There are people like that in the UK, and they call themselves the BNP.

It's all the Nazis' fault. Them and the British.

 

[nomix]

My father entertains a sollution that includes putting mr. Netanyahu, mr. Abbas and mr. Whoever's in Charge of Hamas this week in a hunting cabin on Jan Mayen midwinter.

No settlers to pander for mr. Netanyahu, no whisky for mr. Abbas and no semtex for mr. Whoever's in Charge of Hamas this week. Until they fix this.

Might work. I really think it's the best intitiative for decades.

 

[GRtak]

Don't forget to install the hidden cameras for the betting on who kills who first.

 

[nomix]

Probably Netanyahu, he's probably got the best hand to hand training. Pity they didn't elect Tzipi Livni.

 

[laxmax613]

Netanyahu was a paratrooper, he'll make it work.

I suggest some reading up on what the PA under Salam Fayyad has been doing. While Hamas is still a bunch of bastards, Salam Fayyad and Fatah has become something different.

I vote for Fayyad. I've met him before, totally legit guy.

 

[nomix]

Good. Fayyad is quite simply the man Fatah needs. Some years from now, when Abbas retire, he'll be perfect as president.

 

[Firecat]

**stuff that happened (allegedly) decades ago that have little to do with the creation of a Palestinian state in 2011**

Steve

Reading your post, I can't help but to get the vibe that you are an anti-semite and will not stop until Israel is wiped off the map and/or Jews are driven into the sea.

I want Israelis to have peace, maintaining the status quo and continuing to build settlements is very bad for Israel. Palestinians are fighting for a state. Creation of a Palestinian state would bring about peace. You said it yourself....

Beyond that, realistically, is Palestine even remotely a state? Currently, they engage in warfare on civilian targets in Israel. They cannot control the West Bank in the slightest. They are, in reality, a terrorist hotbed of activity (unless one claims that the attacks are in fact being directed by the Authority, which would be even more heinous) that has been tolerated simply because Israel has tried to to fan the flames more than needed. (doubt that? Picture all the suicide bomber and rocket attacks happening to any other country and there would be significant military action against that terrorist base of activity)

A state would not be able to get away with such behavior (supposedly), they would be held accountable.

 

[Heathrow]

Palestinian statehood, too early, or about time?

Dunno, but I would like the "Road Map" to peace between Israel and Palestine to be restarted in good faith by both parties.

Hamas in the Gaza strip have been pricks allowing the random firing of rockets at Israel and other terrorist activites. Recognising the state of Israel and really stopping terrorism would be a good start.

The Israelis have also been real pricks for many things in the past, the settlement building on the West Bank being one of the most contentious. They also seem to be not very motivated to move toward a peace deal.

Israel is a nice democratic country, well educated people, good infrastructure and industry, etc. They seem not to be bothered that the Gaza strip is a shit hole with 1.5 unhappy people living there.

The lack of progress is depressing. Maybe getting statehood for Palestine would be a game changer, where the Palestinians would grow up some and Israel would get some respect for them.

 

[laxmax613]

A state would not be able to get away with such behavior (supposedly), they would be held accountable.

Would they? I bet that Hezbollah, which makes a up a majority of the Lebanese government won't get sanctioned that bad when they inevitably will start firing rockets at Israel from the north.

EDIT: also, none of that seems to stand in the way of Hamas being the distributor of aid in Gaza. Take the rockets and the attacks of last month and add the rhetoric of hate and violence that they spread through propaganda (like this that's targeted directly to children: )

[video=youtube;gi-c6lbFGC4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi-c6lbFGC4[/video]

and the specifically anti-semitic and non-democratic language of their charter and I wonder why people can't see them taking advantage of this step and creating a state where rights aren't protected like other states in the region. With the right application of pressure by governments in Europe, groups like Hamas will die out, and then we can talk about states.

 

[Firecat]

Would they? I bet that Hezbollah, which makes a up a majority of the Lebanese government won't get sanctioned that bad when they inevitably will start firing rockets at Israel from the north.

That's why I added the "supposedly" part. For the most part it's true, with some notable exceptions. That said, the UN hasn't turned a blind eye towards Hezbollah.

 

[MaTaR]

Would they? I bet that Hezbollah, which makes a up a majority of the Lebanese government won't get sanctioned that bad when they inevitably will start firing rockets at Israel from the north.

EDIT: also, none of that seems to stand in the way of Hamas being the distributor of aid in Gaza. Take the rockets and the attacks of last month and add the rhetoric of hate and violence that they spread through propaganda (like this that's targeted directly to children: )

[video=youtube;gi-c6lbFGC4]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi-c6lbFGC4[/video]

.

r u serious ? that video isnt spreading hate...its tells the children not to lose their identity and that palestine , the place they call home still exists and wont go ...i hate how they make palestinians seem like ignorant people with nothing to do but throw rocks. Open your eyes FFS ..the people in gaza have lived their their entire lives and have lived shitty lives with their children not knowing why they are living like this..dont justify this by saying that terrorists are shooting rockets ...how many civilians in gaza alone died from israeli fire and bombs and rockets...dont talk biased like this without know what its like to be in such a situation.

 

[laxmax613]

I'm Israeli. I've spent nights in bomb shelters. Let's not get in to this.

Anyway, I think that this issue goes farther than borders and authority. The Palestinians need a national framework of reliable social services and businesses. Yes, some of what Israel has built/done/etc has made it a bit harder, but it's not harder than the way the Turks or British dealt with the Zionists prior to the establishment of Israel as a modern nation-state. Before establishing their state, the Zionists created institutions like the Histadrut, Tnuva and JNF to precede government authorities and build business potential that still have influence today. If the Palestinians can focus less of their energy on getting pissy and shooting rockets and more of it on building and planning what they need, they'll be able to succeed as a state. I know they can; there are Palestinians at every major university and in all fields. They are smart and capable people.

 

[Firecat]

You make it seem like there is no functioning society in the Palestinian territories. The West Bank has been doing pretty well, and the primary reason Gaza has been doing so poorly is due to the blockade and economic sanctions by the Quartet.

No more hurdles. Let Palestine become a state, and the pieces will fall into place.

 

[laxmax613]

You forget that the PA is hanging on by a thread because it's failed routinely to provide services. The only reason it's still in power in the WB and Hamas is not is that there haven't been elections. If that's the current situation, let's see if we can project forward and see how a disgruntled population fed up with a lack of services that they can't blame on the Jews will turn out. There will be worse violence between factions. There needs to be Palestinian-established infrastructure and institutions first.

EDIT: the issue with the PA is one of public opinion. the WB pop. sees Hamas making the headlines and the PA sitting on its hands. They then sway over to Hamas, which, even if it can't provide on other things, can promise fiery rhetoric. It's not that the PA is ineffective as a whole, but it needs a revamp in order to change from PLO mk. II to previsionary government. There are good people there who can make a difference, like Fayyad. These people need the power and not the corrupt bureaucrats.

Also, Hamas is the reason that Gaza is not on par with the WB. Hamas controls the entire aid system in Gaza and can siphon off aid dollars to fund their own activities ie. rockets. Hamas, even without the terrorism aspect, is corrupt and needs to go.

No more hurdles. Let Palestine become a state, and the pieces will fall into place.

I'm not so sure. Look at places like Africa where a newly independent nation inherits a developing population and falls on its face every few years. Yes, there could be a miracle and the Palestinians will magically be able to throw it all together in a very short period of time, but I'm not betting on it. What I would bet on is a preliminary set of organizations that are created now by new players, not veteran power-brokers. It worked for the Zionists so why not for the Palestinians? It's like the same thing.

 

[Firecat]

I just see this as another example of shifting the goalposts. Sell that to a Palestinian kid and see if he decides to set aside his dream for statehood another decade or strap a bomb to his chest.

 

[laxmax613]

Okay, but what's more real than organizations by and for palestinians that work? The proof is right there next door. And if someone could get pissed off enough to kill a neighbor based on not having as good of a totally free idea, well than you tell me what's wrong with that. I know you meant it figuratively, but seriously, the number of opportunities for deals or unilateral progress missed by the palestinians is astronomical.

And besides, as I've said before, what good is a state or state status if it sucks and gets people more pissed at each other? If the state can't function off the bat, Palestinians are gonna get pissed. Then who's fault is it? You might say that it's the Palestinians fault but they won't. They'll blame it on Israel and the International community for not doing the job that was the palestinians in the first place: building a country. it doesn't just happen by itself.

 

[Firecat]

I think we might basically agree on certain points, it's the order that is in dispute. Build a better society, then become a state. Become a state, then build a better society. (or it's peace first, then statehood...why not statehood first, then peace?)

I think the latter in both scenarios would be more effective, because you will have removed two major obstacles...the physical and psychological impact of the "occupation"

And if someone could get pissed off enough to kill a neighbor based on not having as good of a totally free idea, well than you tell me what's wrong with that. .

It's clear what is wrong with the act. The question is "why do it?"

If they fail as a state....well, we can cross that bridge if we ever get there. There could be many reasons for failure. I don't think the possibility of failure is enough to prevent trying though.

 

[laxmax613]

let's not have another chaotic arab state. let's do it right from the start.