Random Thoughts... [Automotive Edition]

Bad Bowtie

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http://www.svtperformance.com/forum...2052-2011-mustang-5-0-stock-block-881whp.html

We just finished this build on this 2011 Mustang and decided to dyno it last week to see where we were at.

Quick rundown on the build:

2011 Mustang 5.0
STOCK bottom end
Boss Heads
Boss Intake Manifold
Comp Stage 3 Camshafts
Full Exhaust w/hi-flo cats
Procharger P1SC (pullied for 16psi, only seeing 10psi)
Alky Control Dual Nozzle Meth System
SCT Tune

We made 5 pulls and every one was over 850whp.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wwvyCuGhDYg


In the thread some were saying 10# sounds reasonable from a P1SC if the motor (esp at the stock CR) is that efficient, others calling BS.

Thoughts?
 

Spectre

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PSI never tells the whole story when you're talking about boosted applications. PSI only tells half the story at best, you need to look at the compressor map to tell how much air it's moving at that PSI.

The 'Boost in, apex seals out' crowd had a good discussion on this: http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=637225

Or, put another way - 10psi on a stock Eaton M90 such as what is in my XJR isn't close to the same flow of an Eaton M110/112 as was in my XKR.





At about 6000 supercharger shaft RPM and the same PSI, the 110 flows more than 65cfm more.

The problem with the P1-SC (and indeed, any ATI ProCharger) is that ATI refuses to release compressor maps for their products so there's no way for someone to sit down and look at the numbers. It's all guesswork and rule-of-thumb stuff with ATI. However, common experience seems to indicate that more than one variant of the P1-SC is *just* capable of supporting 800+ HP at 10psi with passive charge cooling (intercooler) and a carefully designed intake system. Active charge cooling, like the methanol based system they mention, is good for another 100hp or so. I'd say it's believable, but I'd also say it's running at about as far as that setup can go.

Edit: One other thing - a lot of domestic guys screw up their builds because they don't realize that you have to change the cam or cams out for a boost-friendly item. Then they wonder why they're not getting the power they thought they would and blame the forced induction system they bought and disbelieve anyone who got big numbers with the same system. I've lost count of the number of times I've seen someone who built up his engine to respectable N/A power numbers who decided to go boosted and ended up with some pretty miserable numbers due to their retained long duration, high overlap cams - which is the exact opposite of what you need for forced induction. The MX6 guys had a pretty good presentation on this: http://www.mx6.com/forums/1g-faq-submission-area/135425-turbo-cam-selection-faq.html
 
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prizrak

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PSI never tells the whole story when you're talking about boosted applications. PSI only tells half the story at best, you need to look at the compressor map to tell how much air it's moving at that PSI.

The 'Boost in, apex seals out' crowd had a good discussion on this: http://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=637225

Or, put another way - 10psi on a stock Eaton M90 such as what is in my XJR isn't close to the same flow of an Eaton M110/112 as was in my XKR.





At about 6000 supercharger shaft RPM and the same PSI, the 110 flows more than 65cfm more.

The problem with the P1-SC (and indeed, any ATI ProCharger) is that ATI refuses to release compressor maps for their products so there's no way for someone to sit down and look at the numbers. It's all guesswork and rule-of-thumb stuff with ATI. However, common experience seems to indicate that more than one variant of the P1-SC is *just* capable of supporting 800+ HP at 10psi with passive charge cooling (intercooler) and a carefully designed intake system. Active charge cooling, like the methanol based system they mention, is good for another 100hp or so. I'd say it's believable, but I'd also say it's running at about as far as that setup can go.

Edit: One other thing - a lot of domestic guys screw up their builds because they don't realize that you have to change the cam or cams out for a boost-friendly item. Then they wonder why they're not getting the power they thought they would and blame the forced induction system they bought and disbelieve anyone who got big numbers with the same system. I've lost count of the number of times I've seen someone who built up his engine to respectable N/A power numbers who decided to go boosted and ended up with some pretty miserable numbers due to their retained long duration, high overlap cams - which is the exact opposite of what you need for forced induction. The MX6 guys had a pretty good presentation on this: http://www.mx6.com/forums/1g-faq-submission-area/135425-turbo-cam-selection-faq.html
That's funny my friend and I had the same discussion when we were looking at turbos for his SR.
 

Bad Bowtie

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Exactly the type of response I was hoping I'd get. :D

Funny you bring up the cam(s) thing. I was wondering myself what the specs of these cams were that they used, and just how much they helped. The right (or wrong) cam(s) can really set a combo up for success (or failure). [Local kid has a turbo LS1 T/A, STS butt-mounted 67mm, longtubes, Torquer 2 (232/234 110LSA aka not boost friendly @ 6.5* of overlap) at 10psi with meth, and only makes 480rwhp. :lol:] Not too long ago there weren't any cams out for these motors, and now there are cams for boosted applications? That was a big shock to me, the market must be moving quick.


Agreed though, that P1 is on it's outer limits. I'd like to see it with whatever it has left to give + some C16 or the like. Wonder how long the motor will hold together too.



*edit/further rant on cam choice for FI- as with my example of the local STS trans am kid's setup, it's getting worse in the LSX world when these cars get cheap and people just throw money at a combo and hope for the best. The kid in my example said "well it made good power N/A so it's gotta help for a turbo right? And I still want it to lope at idle real nasty." God that last part kills me. *facepalm*
 
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Spectre

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Exactly the type of response I was hoping I'd get. :D

Funny you bring up the cam(s) thing. I was wondering myself what the specs of these cams were that they used, and just how much they helped. The right (or wrong) cam(s) can really set a combo up for success (or failure). [Local kid has a turbo LS1 T/A, STS butt-mounted 67mm, longtubes, Torquer 2 (232/234 110LSA aka not boost friendly @ 6.5* of overlap) at 10psi with meth, and only makes 480rwhp. :lol:] Not too long ago there weren't any cams out for these motors, and now there are cams for boosted applications? That was a big shock to me, the market must be moving quick.

Agreed though, that P1 is on it's outer limits. I'd like to see it with whatever it has left to give + some C16 or the like. Wonder how long the motor will hold together too.
I would have little concern about the bottom end holding together. They're using forged rods and a full-floating wrist pin. And, as we know, the earlier mod motors such as the one in the GT have little problem taking ridiculous levels of horsepower.

Also, commercial boost cams have been around since the 70s. :p Ford Mod motors have had boost cams available since at least 98. However, domestic fans didn't really pay attention to boosted applications and the parts needed for them until the Terminator Cobras showed up and pointed out what they were missing. That's when they really took off.

That's the advantage of having the largest aftermarket of any car nameplate ever - once the market identifies a need, tons and tons and tons of people pile on and suddenly you have an embarrassment of riches.
 
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Thomas93

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@Blind: Why not splice a 12v cigarette lighter plug onto it with a long wire and have it coming through the door seal? Just tape the wire to the side of the body or along the bonnet crack to hide it.
Where did you see it? I saw it in Coventry city centre the other day :)
 

Spectre

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*edit/further rant on cam choice for FI- as with my example of the local STS trans am kid's setup, it's getting worse in the LSX world when these cars get cheap and people just throw money at a combo and hope for the best. The kid in my example said "well it made good power N/A so it's gotta help for a turbo right? And I still want it to lope at idle real nasty." God that last part kills me. *facepalm*
That has applied to most of the domestic crowd for a very, very long time. Remember, more than a few are still afraid of fuel injection. And, of course, they can't believe that a 3.0L inline six with a turbo can put down 1100hp at the rear wheels (Supra), etc., etc. The Ford crowd has the advantage of their manufacturer kicking them in the face and making them get away from the old tech stuff (or at least realize that it's not the 1960s any more and they need to at least be aware of change) courtesy of the Mod motor.

GM, not so much.
 
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EyeMWing

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Vehix just named the XTerra as one of their top 5 under-the-radar vehicles:
It's ASTONISHING how many XTerras there are on the road. Every single one ever sold must still be out there. Seriously. I was helping a friend shop for one and I started paying attention. They easily outnumber F-150's in this area.
 

Spectre

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Weird, I am agreeing with you again. Gonna go take my temperature...
Keep in mind, I don't have anything invested in the old domestic rivalries - I'm more of an outsider. :D Sure, I have a CVPI and am shopping for a Ford diesel truck, but the CVPI was bought for a specific reason and it wasn't Ford fanboyism. It's also going up for sale as it lost its mission yesterday. The truck will be a Ford because of the big three diesel trucks, GM is the worst all around and Dodge has a good engine but the transmission is crap and the rest of the truck isn't great, which leaves Ford with a good drivetrain and decent truck. I'd get an International but those are too large and too expensive.
 

Redliner

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/me checks prices for '06 Xterras.

60k? Yeah, right.



EDIT: DUH!
 
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public

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Dropped the Mazda in this morning, to be reassembled. Let's see how it looks when I go back.
 

Blind_Io

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'96? I thought the first year was 2000. Sure you aren't thinking of the XTrail? In Brazil it was only made from 2003-2007, according to Wikipedia.
 
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93Flareside

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I wish I would've pushed my dad into getting an xterra. He got a '00 Jimmy instead. It's nice but way underpowered and just feels overly heavy for no reason. Now it has a head gasket issue which possibly could be just how he cares for it, He never lets the engine warm up before he goes places. The issue started since he started driving it after I bought my truck last year.

It's a rather slow leak but the coolant went from orange to dirty orange pretty quickly. Spectre, would Steel Seal work?

 

Spectre

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It will seal it... then ruin the cooling system or worse.

You're going to have to get it fixed or soon you'll have water in the oil; shortly after that the engine will fail. Those engines were known to have bad reactions with the GM Dexcool they came with and there have been several lawsuits.
 
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captain_70s

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Ha! I've found an American Marina I want!



Well Mariner... Close enough. :p

*Sigh* The US has a far better selection of dated, unreliable, rusty barges to choose from compared to the UK.... :(
 

Aston Martin

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Driving lesson 2: The Corsa was in the bodyshop, requiring a new bumper. So today I was in a delivery mileage C3.
I think it's safe to assume I know nothing... both cars felt identical. Admittedly the roads we've been on are limited to 30 MPH.

Because i'm lazier than an American starting a diet. It turns out, my instructor doesn't like it when i'm on a 35-40 foot long road and I keep it in 1st doing 4 MPH, because I don't see the point in changing up and then back down instantly. I would rather do the kerb crawl... :mrgreen:

I also don't see the point in mirrors.
 
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