Random Thoughts... [Automotive Edition]

NooDle

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Hydrogen is just too damn expensive and inefficient at the moment. It costs a ton of energy to produce and the fact you can refuel in 10 minutes doesn’t outweigh the fact that it costs around 10€ to drive 100 kms. Thats even more than petrol.

Evs are around 3-4€/100 kms. If electricity is cheap wherever you are (I pay around 0,24€/kwh) this gets even better
 

gaasc

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sorry but fcev for cars is just not going to happen. Apart from our things, mainly There’s way too many better uses for h2 (read: better paying) and way too little renewable energy in the foreseeable future. I’ve posted the hydrogen ladder somewhere here before, but I cba repeating it. I’m sick and tired of the h2 bullshit still being debated as a solution to a nonexistent problem…

I disagree.

It seems your argument hinges rather heavily on the fact that there can only be one technology. I personally find this approach limiting, and prone to create unnecessary exclusions. I have, of course, seen the hydrogen ladder. Mr. Liebreich's scale is quite good, but as with anything, it may perhaps be misguided to dogmatically follow it. That there exist better uses for H2 is obvious, but this does not mean that we must focus exclusively on them.

The argument about there being too little renewable energy also stands on the assumption that energy production and initiatives will be the same in the future as they are today. Green energy will continue to grow, and we will be forced to produce more of it, The sources of this are in themselves a hot item of discussion, but whatever the result, it will eventually mean total or near-total green energy, which means no discernible environmental impact for H2 production.

Mr. Liebreich goes on to confirm that he is not "bullish at all about any use of hydrogen [in land transportation] in any but niche settings." and, beyond the fueling system, goes on to explain his personal feelings about FCEV in the following paragraph:

It's not just about efficiency. We do plenty of inefficient things in life, like drive SUVs and sports cars, cook on barbecues and go on holiday. The fundamental problem with H2FC cars is that they are worse vehicles on all the dimensions bar one which people use to choose their next car: worse acceleration (because BEV's are astonishing), less seating and cargo space (because they are full of hydrogen tanks), higher maintenance (because their drive trains are so complex) and you can't refuel them conveniently at home at the office, at the mall, at a nearby lamp-post and so on.

Though these reasons can be debated (he seems to imply that we cannot simply place the hydrogen tank where the Battery in a BEV would go, for instance, being able to recharge in a lamppost is less of a plus when you remember the time it would take to refuel a FCEV and so on...) but if his ladder is based squarely on efficiency, these shouldn't even be mentioned.

As for the electric cars not getting "more and more traction", I guess I hallucinated Hyundai committing to having their entire commercial lineup with an FCEV option by 2028, or BMW testing FCEV as it could “become an attractive alternative to battery-electric drive trains – especially for customers who do not have their own access to electric charging infrastructure or who frequently drive long distances.” and "When the future is zero emissions, we believe having two answers is better than one," or FCEV racecars making their way into LeMans in 2025 (developments there will certainly make their way into consumer products), or JLR pursuing it as part of their "Reimagine strategy" or...


It's not just Toyota and Honda and their silly little midsize with two stations in the UK and six in California anymore, so "more and more traction" seems accurate.

You evidently have a well formed and strong opinion about it what with "h2 bullshit". But from here, what I am seeing is the development of two technologies that will exist more or less simultaneously and will provide consumers with choice depending on how important a fast refueling is for them (whether actually or just perceived.) with little detriment (so far) in development on the initiatives that are further up the list of the H2 ladder. As such, I fail to see the problem, especially as Blue hydrogen is phased out over green.

My opinion is rather equally strong about there being space for both of them, and that space only getting bigger.
 
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NecroJoe

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A part of BEVs and energy production I don't see mentioned very often is the ability to "fuel" your car "off-the-grid" (so to speak...although I realize it's not accurate), with your own de-centralized electricity source, like rooftop solar panels. Here in California (and I'm sure other parts of the world beat us to the punch), every newly-built home has to basically have enough solar to power the home. You can reduce the size needed by adding a battery to the system.

The "off the grid" comment isn't accurate because you're still technically connected to the grid, and if you charge at night you may drain the home's battery enough to need to buy supplemental electricity from the utility...but it would be *less* than if you were to have to get all of the electricity from the utility/power plant...in my head, this would also reduce the potential "strain" on the grid, that I've seen mentioned a lot in the "cons" part of the EV conversation.
 

CraigB

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Looking at headlights for my Frontier (they are starting to haze a little, but at the cost for new, I'll polish them again), but I found this description of the front grille emblem quite, hyperbolic:

"One of the best features of your Nissan is its brand and Prestige. Share the passion you have for your Nissan by getting a new Grille Emblem (Front) for your vehicle. It may be time for a new one if your outdated Nissan grille emblem was broken in a wreck. Or, perhaps road debris has chipped away it, and now you're Left w/ a broken or scratched Nissan emblem. Is that truly how youd like your Nissan to look out on the road?"

It actually goes on for another couple sentences, but I think that gets the point across. :ROFLMAO:
 

GRtak

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I disagree.

It seems your argument hinges rather heavily on the fact that there can only be one technology. I personally find this approach limiting, and prone to create unnecessary exclusions. I have, of course, seen the hydrogen ladder. Mr. Liebreich's scale is quite good, but as with anything, it may perhaps be misguided to dogmatically follow it. That there exist better uses for H2 is obvious, but this does not mean that we must focus exclusively on them.

The argument about there being too little renewable energy also stands on the assumption that energy production and initiatives will be the same in the future as they are today. Green energy will continue to grow, and we will be forced to produce more of it, The sources of this are in themselves a hot item of discussion, but whatever the result, it will eventually mean total or near-total green energy, which means no discernible environmental impact for H2 production.

Mr. Liebreich goes on to confirm that he is not "bullish at all about any use of hydrogen [in land transportation] in any but niche settings." and, beyond the fueling system, goes on to explain his personal feelings about FCEV in the following paragraph:



Though these reasons can be debated (he seems to imply that we cannot simply place the hydrogen tank where the Battery in a BEV would go, for instance, being able to recharge in a lamppost is less of a plus when you remember the time it would take to refuel a FCEV and so on...) but if his ladder is based squarely on efficiency, these shouldn't even be mentioned.

As for the electric cars not getting "more and more traction", I guess I hallucinated Hyundai committing to having their entire commercial lineup with an FCEV option by 2028, or BMW testing FCEV as it could “become an attractive alternative to battery-electric drive trains – especially for customers who do not have their own access to electric charging infrastructure or who frequently drive long distances.” and "When the future is zero emissions, we believe having two answers is better than one," or FCEV racecars making their way into LeMans in 2025 (developments there will certainly make their way into consumer products), or JLR pursuing it as part of their "Reimagine strategy" or...


It's not just Toyota and Honda and their silly little midsize with two stations in the UK and six in California anymore, so "more and more traction" seems accurate.

You evidently have a well formed and strong opinion about it what with "h2 bullshit". But from here, what I am seeing is the development of two technologies that will exist more or less simultaneously and will provide consumers with choice depending on how important a fast refueling is for them (whether actually or just perceived.) with little detriment (so far) in development on the initiatives that are further up the list of the H2 ladder. As such, I fail to see the problem, especially as Blue hydrogen is phased out over green.

My opinion is rather equally strong about there being space for both of them, and that space only getting bigger.


This a good explanation on hydrogen and why it is not likely to catch on.

 

NecroJoe

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Looking at headlights for my Frontier (they are starting to haze a little, but at the cost for new, I'll polish them again), but I found this description of the front grille emblem quite, hyperbolic:

"One of the best features of your Nissan is its brand and Prestige. Share the passion you have for your Nissan by getting a new Grille Emblem (Front) for your vehicle. It may be time for a new one if your outdated Nissan grille emblem was broken in a wreck. Or, perhaps road debris has chipped away it, and now you're Left w/ a broken or scratched Nissan emblem. Is that truly how youd like your Nissan to look out on the road?"

It actually goes on for another couple sentences, but I think that gets the point across. :ROFLMAO:

Oh, man...that's the funniest thing I've read today. :lmao:
 

eizbaer

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My point: now compare that to the BEV efforts of those same OEMs. Also: you yourself quote Hyundai's commercial lineup - which is literally the point: the only place where hydrogen still has a chance.
Only one technology: yes - because development is EXPENSIVE. There simply isn't enough money to be properly invested in both, hence why all the above quoted hydrogen activities are laughable compared to BEV.
The Liebreich-Quote you pulled also doesn't help your case in any way?
He does not imply that a hydrogen tank can't go where a battery can. It's a fact. You can't build a 700 bar tank in a non-round form.
It is also not entirely about efficiency, but about COST (which, if we're being frank, is also down to efficiency). Even with crazy amounts of renewable energies, hydrogen will simply be too expensive (because, as stated before, there are too many more "valuable" uses for it that are willing to pay better).
What I will concede, or clarify: yes, hydrogen is technically "gaining traction" as there are fueling stations being built and the number of cars on the street is rising (barely). But the expansion is laughable in comparison to BEV infrastructure (same as R&D to be frank).

Honestly, at some point this isn't really an "opinion" anymore... but I think this is a similar discussion to the one that drove calvinhobbes out of the covid thread.

anyway, another voice that's maybe worth more:

let's put this topic at rest. i won't convince you, you won't convince me, so be it.
 

NooDle

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let's put this topic at rest. i won't convince you, you won't convince me, so be it.

What? Reasonable discussion and conclusions? On the INTERNET? I won’t stand for this. Don’t you guys want to yell at each other some more about how right you are?
 

public

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Yeah the MX-30 will be unfortunate garbage until it get the rotary engine range extender. RETURN OF APEX SEALS WOOOO
 

gaasc

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What? Reasonable discussion and conclusions? On the INTERNET? I won’t stand for this. Don’t you guys want to yell at each other some more about how right you are?
2012-09-19-TGAG_202_The_Breakthrough.jpg


I love FG precisely because the times we've actually engaged in reasoned discourse and support outweigh the ones where we fling shit at one another...political section notwithstanding :ROFLMAO:
 

93Flareside

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View attachment 3562651

I love FG precisely because the times we've actually engaged in reasoned discourse and support outweigh the ones where we fling shit at one another...political section notwithstanding :ROFLMAO:

On second thought, lets not go to the Politics section, tis a silly place.


FinalGear especially recently has made a huge impact on my life and I really enjoy knowing there's similar weirdos like myself dotted all over the world. <3
 
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jack_christie

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Looking at headlights for my Frontier (they are starting to haze a little, but at the cost for new, I'll polish them again), but I found this description of the front grille emblem quite, hyperbolic:

"One of the best features of your Nissan is its brand and Prestige. Share the passion you have for your Nissan by getting a new Grille Emblem (Front) for your vehicle. It may be time for a new one if your outdated Nissan grille emblem was broken in a wreck. Or, perhaps road debris has chipped away it, and now you're Left w/ a broken or scratched Nissan emblem. Is that truly how youd like your Nissan to look out on the road?"

It actually goes on for another couple sentences, but I think that gets the point across. :ROFLMAO:

Rich Rebuilds refreshed his Z3 headlights
 

CraigB

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Rich Rebuilds refreshed his Z3 headlights

I've done it before. It's not a big deal, just felt if new wasn't too much I'd snag a set. Sadly one of them is slightly broken in the way it holds the bulb, but I've dealt with it for awhile, so I'll deal with it awhile longer. Maybe I could fins some used ones on eBay?

Edit: Never mind. The ones on eBay are either cheap reproductions or damaged OEM for nearly new price.
 
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GRtak

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Is calling it a Dard an attempt to disguise what it is?
 

gaasc

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No that's what they're calling you if you buy it.
 

GRtak

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eizbaer

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on my way to work this morning I overtook a truck of BMW iX. luckily it was still very dark out... I fear if I'd been able to see it better, I might've puked. holy crap what a disgusting car. :sick:
 
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