Russia and Ukraine

DanRoM

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As long as Russia keeps the US and Europe busy, China might just try and use the opportunity and invade Taiwan.
 

jack_christie

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You would almost think Germany seem ok with the invasion of Crimea, they let Russia build the gas pipeline and were about to start using it.

Odd that they would make the strategic mistake of depending on Russia for more that 30% of its natural gas imports.
 

calvinhobbes

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You would almost think Germany seem ok with the invasion of Crimea, they let Russia build the gas pipeline and were about to start using it.
You should never play all your cards at the start of the game. NordStream 2 is one that our government decided to hold back for a while.

The dependence on fossil fuels, raw materials and finished products imported from dictatorships is one of the major downsides of our globalised high-tech economy and not specific to any one country. If the gas is in the ground below Putin’s feet, he is the one who controls it, whether we like it or not - who would be able to replace that supply?

If anything, the problems with Russian gas once again highlight that we definitely should reduce our demand for fossil fuels.
 

calvinhobbes

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Odd that they would make the strategic mistake of depending on Russia for more that 30% of its natural gas imports.
As the article states, that “energy partnership” dates back to the Cold War. I was only in first grade when that ended, but I don’t think the current situation is quite as serious as the Cold War; not yet, anyway.

So when you compare it to other exporters of gas, oil and coal, the decision to keep importing from Russia doesn’t seem particularly risky.
 

calvinhobbes

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I feel like if the reaction is too hard, we might find ourselves in a war against Russia.
That’s going to happen if Putin wants it, no matter how “we” (NATO? USA? EU?) react.

After the Russian annexation (sorry, “pacification”) of parts of Georgia, the annexation (no, “liberation” 🙄) of Crimea and most recently the annexation (by which of course I mean “recognition”) of the “People’s Republics” near the border, his ego might now actually be big enough to go for an invasion that for once is not clandestine.

My impression of him “sending troops” into the Luhansk and Donetsk regions is that he basically ordered the Russian troops who have been present for years to finally put the army insignia on their uniforms, but perhaps that’s just my inner cynic trying to get out.
 

jack_christie

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As the article states, that “energy partnership” dates back to the Cold War. I was only in first grade when that ended, but I don’t think the current situation is quite as serious as the Cold War; not yet, anyway.

So when you compare it to other exporters of gas, oil and coal, the decision to keep importing from Russia doesn’t seem particularly risky.
Germany can't have it both ways, easy on Russia to get natural gas and support Ukraine.
 

Dr_Grip

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Germany can't have it both ways, easy on Russia to get natural gas and support Ukraine.
Interesting that you keep going back to this, with the US being a similarly large importer of Russian gas.

That being said, the EU response indeed is pathetic.
 

SirEdward

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That’s going to happen if Putin wants it, no matter how “we” (NATO? USA? EU?) react.
It depends on what the response will be and what the plausible response for further aggression is.

If Nato is too soft, it's a sign of weakness, which will lead to further aggression; if it's too hard, it's war.

It's a fine line.
 

jack_christie

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Interesting that you keep going back to this, with the US being a similarly large importer of Russian gas.
American imports what?
 

calvinhobbes

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Germany can't have it both ways, easy on Russia to get natural gas and support Ukraine.
As I was saying: it’s not just Germany doing a lot of business with Russia. The City of London launders their money, the French Riviera provides prestigious real estate, fossil fuels and critical raw materials are sold to all who can afford them and so on and so forth.

Putin’s falling-out with Obama and his subsequent military adventures showed anyone who was willing to see it that he was going to take Russia on the path of confrontation. But as always, business interests prevailed and so we kept feeding the bear.
 
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GRtak

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GRtak

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D-Fence

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That fucking midget twat started it now for real, missiles hitting Kiev, Odessa and Kharkov.


Having been in Ukraine two years ago, this makes me really sad because the people there were just amazing. All I can hope for is that the Ukrainians give Putin hell and that the west unites to make PROPER painful sanctions so that someone finally finds a reason to get Putin off his post.
 

GRtak

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I knew that this was the probable outcome, but it really pisses me off!
 

eizbaer

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That being said, the EU response indeed is pathetic.
Let's see what those ready to go real bad sanctions in case of an invasion of ukraine were, then. I expect nothing.

That fucking midget twat started it now for real, missiles hitting Kiev, Odessa and Kharkov.
Yeah that actually surprised me when I heard that on the radio this morning. I did not expect it to escalate this fast. I love how everyone's meeting up to discuss what to do but any military option is off the table anyway. Right, let the insane guy "demilitarize and denazifi ukraine" (wtf kind of bullshit can he come up with honestly?) and set up on the border to poland...

quick edit: what I always find fascinating is how does russia even have such a big (and working) military still? the economy is crap - where does all the money come from? is it funneled straight from oil&gas sales into military? according to wikipedia:
Russia has the world's fourth-highest military expenditure, spending $61.7 billion in 2020.
actually according to that list it's only a little more than the US compared to GDP... which honestly just makes much clearer to me how insane the US military expenditure is.

ah whatever it's all crap.
 
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GRtak

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Here is an interesting thread that reference the UN meeting last night. Ukraine is challenging Russia's right to be on the security council.


 

Dr_Grip

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The interesting part will be to see if Russia's land grab goes beyond Donbass to include land access to Crimea, and potentially even Odessa.
 

awdrifter

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It begins.
 
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