Say there was a war between...

Say there was a war between...

  • EU (don't forget about Poland)

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Asia (don't forget the noodles)

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    2

justin syder

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And what do you say to Oil for Fraud then?

French, Russia and Chinese were promissed certain Oil fields in Iraq if they voted no to the war in Iraq. Read about it and do some research.

And instead of being reactionary and posting a pic, bring me PROOF that we are there for oil. Show me links or post some facts instead of mindless cursing. I know you are not ignorant, just misguided.
 

Daniel

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Just tell me Justin, simply, why Saddam Hussein was the one out of many dictators Bush removed? Why not help another country like Sudan? All they want, is FOOD. ANd what about North Corea, they admit they have various weapons wich they ARE willing to use? WTF is going on?
 

justin syder

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Just tell me Justin, simply, why Saddam Hussein was the one out of many dictators Bush removed? Why not help another country like Sudan? All they want, is FOOD. ANd what about North Corea, they admit they have various weapons wich they ARE willing to use? WTF is going on?
Saddam has a relashionship with terrorists. He offered about $25,000 to families of palestinian suicide bombers familys. He had a link with terror. He used chemical weapons on his own ppl, the Kurds in the north. He would not hesistate to use them against others or even worse yet, sell them to terrorists to use against us or Israelis or others.

We are fighting the war on terror. That is why he was ousted and not the bad dictators in Sudan and Cuba etc etc. We'll let all of you socialists fight the war on hunger. YOU guys can practise what you preach and go into Sudan and spread socialism and help with donating food etc etc. PLUS, the US contributed $200Million to Sudan, more than any other country in the world, more than any socialist country. :wink: And, the US used C130 transport planes frmo airbases in Italy to transport African peace keepers into the region.

Im sure all you're Euro friends and Canadians with health care would love to help solve world hunger and oust these dictators that starve their own people and are corrupt. We are still waiting... :roll:

N.Korea is using it to gain some ground, its a chess move. You might have less pieces but you place a strong piece like the Bishop or Rook in position to attack but only so you're opponent can make a defensive move. They want us to lift sanctions. If you do some research you'll know that Kim Jong Ill is desparate to get supplies, food and fuel to his country. They have 3million dying over the last few years due to starvation.
 
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Sadam:
- terrorist supporter.
- already in violation of UN resolutions, did not comply with UN.
- has attacked other countries before.
- because of the above he was at least "percieved" as crazier that any of the other threats.
- as a side effect, I assume it was at least hoped that a democratic muslim state would develop, perhaps that can still happen.
 

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OH!!!!!

I forgot to mention China's ultimate weapon of mass destruction against the Americans...the hundreds of billions of US dollars in Chinese hands that are under the 'SELL' button!!!!!



Fahrenheit Oil and Gold: China & the Final War for Resources
By: Bill Ridley, Online Investors News
OnlineInvestorsNews Volume M9-14, November 18, 2004

In their 1999 seminar treatise entitled, Unrestricted War: China?s Master Plan to Destroy America, Colonels Qiao Liang and Wang Xiangsui state that in order for China to become a dominant global power over the United States, ?The Final War over Resources?, must be successfully concluded.

Though this could be easily blown off as People?s Liberation Army hyperbole, a closer look at the facts shows us that the United States is in a very vulnerable position on a number of fronts with China. And so with it, is the U.S. dollar.

As long time readers of the OI news know, the resurgence of gold and the fall of the dollar have a multiple factors working together. Going forward into 2005, China?s ?final war for resources? will be a key factor in the further depreciation of the greenback.

The U.S. government has been keeping a lid on the brewing problems with China because of the delicate situation which has the Chinese central bank holding billions in U.S. dollars and treasury bonds which Washington fears they might sell.

China has been instrumental in helping the U.S. government bank roll its deficit and consequently, this reliance on the Chinese to support the U.S. debt has the government up against a rock and a hard place. This problem is made worse each day by the huge trade imbalance favoring the Chinese economy.

The U.S. dollar reserves of China?s central bank soared 271% to $449 billion from 2000 to April of 2004. And while they have been filling their coffers with the greenback their balance of trade with the U.S. is also building. The trade deficit with China last year was a record $124.1 billion and this year, it?s increased a further 28%.

Meanwhile, the United States is financing its ever ballooning budget deficit, which is projected officially to be $521 billion in 2004.

Zhu Min, general manager and advisor to the President for the Bank of China was quoted in the China Daily earlier this year saying that: ?The United States is benefiting from China using its trade surplus to buy U.S. Treasury paper as a reserve currency, along with other Asian nations. But in the long run, this is not sustainable.... China will focus more and more on domestic demand, which is growing fast. Then we won't be able to finance the U.S. deficit."

And now that?s what?s happening. China is reportedly selling off their hoard of U.S. dollars to help build their much needed infrastructure and spend heavily to secure global resources.

A United Nations report points out that China?s recent prosperity has raised the living standard of 160 million Chinese who once existed in poverty. Behind them are another 800 million who are awaiting their turn to live a life once thought unattainable. The demand of goods and services from this group means an even greater global demand for resources.

The desire of China to tie up resources has been evidenced by China Minmetals Corp. who had been in exclusive talks with Noranda, one of Canada?s largest mining companies, in an attempt to buyout the company for an estimated $7 billion.

There was tremendous opposition to this plan however. Canadians argued that the Chinese government?s strategic interests in securing mineral supplies, and its management methods, could be contrary to the interest of Noranda, its workers, and the communities where it operates mines and processing facilities.

Some opponents to the deal also cited U.S. Congressional hearings that alleged that Minmetals has profited from forced labor from Chinese prisons.

But this is only one bid of many which has China trying to lock up global resources.

Very troubling for the United States is the fact that China has negotiated a new oil supply deal with Iran which would see Iran receiving both arms and cash. China has long standing alliances with Iran and is searching for new energy reserves to drive its booming economy. This new deal with China is not only an agreement to buy oil and gas from Iran but also to develop Iran?s Yadavaran oil field. After this field is developed, Iran will export 150,000 barrels of crude per day to China. This agreement has been valued at $70 billion.

China?s demand for oil outpaced its supply capabilities in 1993. China is now the world?s third largest importer of crude after the U.S. and Japan and their demand is growing. From January to October, China imported 99.6m tonnes of crude oil, exceeding the 91m tonnes imported in the whole of 2003, said reports quoting the General Administration of Customs. Imports of crude oil in 2004 are expected to reach 120m tonnes, the second largest in the world after the US.

Demand for electricity is also on the rise in China. Despite record production of coal and a 15% rise in power generation over the first 10 months of the year, dozens of Chinese cities suffered brown-outs during this past summer. And this winter it looks like many will be left without heat for extended periods. The China Daily reports that Beijing has only 50% of the coal it needs this winter, while Jilin has stores of 40%, half the level of this time last year.

So the multi billion dollar question is what happens when China starts selling U.S. dollars to help expand their infrastructure and secure their resources?

Well you?re already seeing it. Interest rates go up, the dollar goes down, and gold takes flight upwards. Not to mention upward pressure on oil, gas, coal, copper and other key commodities.

The implications of this fact are staggering. And demand for commodities will be overwhelming. Insightful investors who can see this trend and position themselves now in growth oriented equities holding gold, oil, copper and other key commodities will be sitting pretty if a few years time and will have weathered the U.S. dollar collapse better then most.

This is the hugest threat to the U.S. economy right now yet it?s hardly ever mentioned by the mainstream media.

Given the strong economic growth of China and the uncertain purse strings it holds on U.S. dollars and treasury bonds, I can?t help but wonder how this might tie in with their aggressive militaristic actions lately.

Last week a Chinese nuclear powered submarine cruised into Japanese territorial waters in an apparent test of Japan?s will to enforce its own sovereignty. At stake here are under water natural gas riches in the East China Sea very close to the border of Japan?s economic zone. The government of Japan is worried that China may try and tap into gas pools within their jurisdiction.

One fact which doesn?t sit well with the Bush Administration is that U.S. intelligence reports claim China?s military provided training to both the Taliban and al Qaeda. Though U.S. officials are at a loss to explain why the Chinese provided this training some analysts believe it was an attempt to gain influence over these terrorist groups.

Given China?s need for commodities, its human rights offenses, and their hawkish military actions one must wonder if the Chinese government really has a detrimental agenda for America.

The writings of People?s Liberation Army Colonels Qiao Liang and Wang Xiangsui, state that the aggressor nation ?must adjust its own financial strategy, use currency revaluation or devaluation as primary weapons, and combine means such as getting the upper hand in public opinion and changing the rules sufficiently to make financial turbulence and economic crisis appear in the targeted country or area, weakening its overall power, including its military strength. Whether it be the intrusions of hackers, a major explosion at the World Trade Center, or a bombing attack by bin Laden, all of these greatly exceed the frequency bandwidths understood by the American military..."

Conclusion

U.S. dollars and U.S. bonds are under pressure. The budget and trade deficits are hitting new highs on a regular basis. The U.S. economy is in an unbelievable no-win situation where the Fed is damned if it raises interest rates and damned if they don?t. This situation is unsustainable and it?s unrealistic to believe their will be a painless solution.

It?s a given that China needs more of every commodity. To what means they will take to get them remains to be seen.

Regardless of the unknown factors, the facts we are aware of support the premise that in order to protect yourself, diversification into gold, oil and other key commodities makes good sense not only to profit but help keep your wealth intact in the face of a depreciating dollar.

http://news.goldseek.com/OnlineInvestorsNews/1100797927.php
 

Ultra_Kool_Dude

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The problem for me about the war in Iraq is what was the main motivation for it?

- Neutralizing a threat (was Iraq really the biggest threat? :roll: )
- Safeguarding oil (I hope not)
- Helping the Iraqi people (maybe just a byproduct of the other 2?)

I think this is where most people disagree. 8)
 

justin syder

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The problem for me about the war in Iraq is what was the main motivation for it?

- Neutralizing a threat (was Iraq really the biggest threat? )
- Safeguarding oil (I hope not)
- Helping the Iraqi people (maybe just a byproduct of the other 2?)

I think this is where most people disagree.
He WAS producing WMDs and would not hesitate to sell them and HAS used them.

IF we found these WMDS then all the anti-war ppl would have nothing to bitch about. Just as in the case of Afghanistan, theres no bithin about that country and rightyfully so.
 

hanasand

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Tell me justin, what was the original "excuse" (call it whatever you like) for
invading Iraq.


- And then give me a very good reason why this reason/excuse has been changed
so many times...
 

justin syder

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- And then give me a very good reason why this reason/excuse has been changed
so many times...
Because we have people like you complaining about it and all the negative aspects that are just blown out of proportion. It was for WMDs and he WAS connected with terrorism. Those were the reasons.

Anyone WITH common sense KNOWS he was trying to develop WMDs and was very close to in the late 90s as stated by the UN. The UN, i might add, were the very group of ppl that could have prevented us from "invading" Iraq. :roll: He has used these weapons on his own ppl, the kurds in the north. Look that up if you dont believe me. His previous history also includes being a ruthless dictator and invading Kuwait. Why would he need to have WMDs? He would love to have sold them to terrorists to kill americans or he might even have tried to use them against Israel as he has sent scud missles to Israel during the first Gulf war. He was an unpredictable mad man.

- And then give me a very good reason why this reason/excuse has been changed
so many times...
The fact is, a whole list of countries including, Russia, Israel and UK agreed and had the same intelligence that claimed Saddam had WMDs. We also gave him all the time in the world to get rid of them by going through the UN first or did you forget that. It wouldn't be too hard to get rid of them and there were labs and certain ingredients to a WMD that were found but no smoking gun in the form of a stock pile of WMDs.

And as for those countries against the war, the Oil for Fraud certainly reveals why they were against the war in Iraq.

If the UN did their damn job this would not be an issue. Im waiting to see how they handle Iran.

Instead of complaining about Iraq why dont you complain to your own number one ranked country by the UN to DO SOMETHING about most of the poverty in Africa and corrupt govt. Maybe then Id have some respect for you and other socialists style countries to practice what they feel is "good for a society". :wink:
 

justin syder

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OH!!!!!

I forgot to mention China's ultimate weapon of mass destruction against the Americans...the hundreds of billions of US dollars in Chinese hands that are under the 'SELL' button!!!!!
Here are the facts, the book Unrestricted War: China?s Master Plan to Destroy America by Colonels Qiao Liang and Wang Xiangsui outlines one thing, how insane those two guys are. They advocate using terrorism, economic collapse, civilian death etc.. to defeat the United States, they even approve the use of chemical and biological weapons on civilians. They state this because they know the U.S cannot be defeated militarily. They actually claim that the 9/11 attack is a perfect way to attack the U.S. Now is that someone you think is sane, everyone in the world thought that that was a horrible event yet they claim it is perfect military practice.

China is a threat to the long term stability of Asia. They threaten India, and Taiwan and in many ways aid terrorists and rogue nations. China doesnt have the will to survive the political fallout of war with Taiwan. Do you think China will be able to survive sanctions, and the economic collapse from taking Taiwan? Think about this, lets say in 20 minutes China pre-empts Taiwan. They crush Taiwan and take it over in the next 4 days of bombings. Assume no U.S response. They will then face EU and UN sanctions, and they will have to spend billions of dollars fixing the wasteland of Taiwan which they had just leveled a few days ago. All for what, 23 million Taiwanese now becoming communist? Likewise, the Chinese also realize that if they invade Taiwan, the risk nuclear war with the U.S. Think of the global economic reaction. Not a good one. The Chinese are building their military to see if the U.S will continue to help Taiwan or leave it alone. So far their strategy is not working.

To solve the China threat, democracy for China is the only way. Many Chinese are just unhappy with their state controlled churches, media, and human rights violations. Human rights violations at their highest!! In China if you speak out about the government you get 6 months in jail. The U.S finds out that in Iraq a group of U.S soldiers tourtured Iraqis at Abu Garib. There is huge media out cry calling the U.S an evil country etc.. :roll: The U.S reponse is to remove these soldiers, conduct an investigation, and punish them if found guilty. In China, Chinese political prisoners are not given any trial or any chance to defend themselves yet there is no media out cry. NONE. No frontpage news stories etc.. These Chinese incidents occur on a daily basis and are policy, yet what the soldiers did in Iraq was not policy but they were condemened. Is this the China you want as a superpower? Is this what you are so adamately rooting for, our downfall of superpower status for China to assume the roll?

As seen in the Tiananmen square incident the Chinese people are hungry for democracy. As for China becoming a superpower, the only way for China to achieve this is by becoming democratic. The communist system in China prevents its economy from reaching superpower status. They will continue to grow economically but not superpower anytime soon. Sorry to burst your bubble. :wink:

The truth is that the U.S economy is gaining strength. Unempolyment is stable, homeownership is up, jobs are being created, and the US got out of a terrible recession started during Clintons second term. Trust me the value of the dollar will rebound, adjustments have to be made in certain trade policies to fix that but everyone is telling you to invest in Gold cause if you invest in the US dollar, it will gain strength and its popular to "hate America" these days. :roll: :wink: Ppl are writing these articles because "Hating America" will get people to read their articles. Remeber when people said Bush was going to lose the election. Well, didn't happen :wink: Remember when ppl said we would never catch Saddam. Well, didm't happen :wink: Its the "hip" thing these days to hate America and write/do stories about how the U.S will fall.

Mark my words, the US dollar will rebound and then what will ppl write about? The critism just wont end so I come over here and live in a great country and you'll see the truth about America. :wink:


Last week a Chinese nuclear powered submarine cruised into Japanese territorial waters in an apparent test of Japan?s will to enforce its own sovereignty. At stake here are under water natural gas riches in the East China Sea very close to the border of Japan?s economic zone. The government of Japan is worried that China may try and tap into gas pools within their jurisdiction.
The fact that the Japanese found the noisey Chinese nuclear sub points out one exact thing. The Chinese have absolutely NO naval strength. The U.S entered in Soviet waters hundreds of times to conduct listening operations, and went unnoticed by Soviet sonar. That shows the power and quietness of U.S Navy nuclear subs. If the Chinese wanted to enter Japanese waters, they would want to have done it in secret.

I'll be waiting for any more replies on how America is doomed militarily or economically. :roll: :wink:
 

Ultra_Kool_Dude

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I'd expect that China is going to further insulate itself from western culture then, to insure that democracy can't flourish. The same will probably happen with Middle Eastern countries as well.
 

justin syder

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I'd expect that China is going to further insulate itself from western culture then, to insure that democracy can't flourish. The same will probably happen with Middle Eastern countries as well.
:? It doesnt help then to trade with western countries, namely the US. :|
 

CanadianLoonie

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I do have to admit justin is putting up a pretty good fight on multiple fronts all by himself.

Meh, I don't feel like rebutting you yet, justin...trying to get my Chinese submarine to enter Japanese waters instead. :wink:
 

hanasand

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No no Ren, we have to let the guy speak.
Even though offcourse I agree. He is wrong about most things, most of the time.
But we gotta let him say what he wants.

Justin: I'm tired, and sick today, so I can't be bothered answering that humongeus
post of yours right now...
 

justin syder

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No no Ren, we have to let the guy speak.
Even though offcourse I agree. He is wrong about most things, most of the time.
But we gotta let him say what he wants.

Justin: I'm tired, and sick today, so I can't be bothered answering that humongeus
post of yours right now...
That post and renesis' moronic post proove the level of inteligence I have to deal with.

Atleast zenon and canadian_loonie INTELLIGENTLY expressed themselves and their view.

So please, if you think I'm SOOO wrong all the time BUT have not time to counter my arguments DON'T POST!! You both come across as uninformed idiots.

If I'm so wrong then post your opinion or viwepoint. Don't waste time with useless posts like those two.

I'm just tired of seeing these stupid comments and any lack of depth or intellect in them. :| :wink:
 

haha604

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I have no doubts China will become a superpower. With its huge population and its current rate of economic growth, it will become a military contender. You don't need democracy to become a superpower, as the Soviet Union has demonstrated. And I think its very possible that China will become democratic, as many previously autocratic Asian countries had done so in the past few decades. In time the EU and India will also challenge America in military strength, but right now America is king.
And Justin, don't you realize this book you mentioned (Unrestricted War: China?s Master Plan to Destroy America by Colonels Qiao Liang and Wang Xiangsui) is just as credible as books saying that US invaded Iraq for oil?

ANd about the US dollar, it will be weak for some time to come. Sorry to burst your bubble Justin but a weak dollar actually helps the US gov't because it borrows in its own currency (a privlege of being the issuer of an internation currency). Cheaper dollar = fall in the real value of US gov't debt. Of course Bush will say that he supports a strong dollar because if he doesn't say so the dollar will fall so much that it will actually hurt the US. You see, US has an incentive to keep the dollar's value low as long as it runs a trade and budget deficit, so speculators will not prop up the value of the dollar anytime soon.
 

Renesis

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justin syder said:
No no Ren, we have to let the guy speak.
Even though offcourse I agree. He is wrong about most things, most of the time.
But we gotta let him say what he wants.

Justin: I'm tired, and sick today, so I can't be bothered answering that humongeus
post of yours right now...
That post and renesis' moronic post proove the level of inteligence I have to deal with.

Atleast zenon and canadian_loonie INTELLIGENTLY expressed themselves and their view.

So please, if you think I'm SOOO wrong all the time BUT have not time to counter my arguments DON'T POST!! You both come across as uninformed idiots.

If I'm so wrong then post your opinion or viwepoint. Don't waste time with useless posts like those two.

I'm just tired of seeing these stupid comments and any lack of depth or intellect in them. :| :wink:
You can't understand that some of you just don't feel like losing our time explaining something that won't change your view since we tried for more than a year now without success? :roll:
 

hanasand

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The republican party has become a biproduct of thinking to highly of one self.

I think that is a really explaining sentence, it explains the egoism, the greed, the
lack of caring, and in the end it also weakens the country you feel so
strongly about because you stand less united that way. But then again,
it's your choice...


You can't understand that some of you just don't feel like losing our time explaining something that won't change your view since we tried for more than a year now without success?
Word. There is no reason to continue this debate
 
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