Slate Story How “boys/men treat girls/women”

93Flareside

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But most pressingly, after witnessing Kavanaugh’s and Trump’s outbursts, I’ve considered my 7-year-old son. What can I do to shape him into a respectful man—one who doesn’t assault women, most importantly, but who also doesn’t make lewd jokes, grab butts, mock victims, or generally treat women as if they’re inferior?

https://slate.com/human-interest/2018/10/how-to-talk-to-boys-about-sexual-assault-teaching-respect-for-women.html


This is something that’s perplexed me. When and where do these people feel that it’s ok to touch women? Why has this carried on so long. Why haven’t we moved on as a society (at least in USA)? I’ve always grown up being told “hands off” and “no means no.” The phrases like “man up!” Or “Stop crying!” were said when I was young. While it probably had some lasting effects somewhere in my mental health, I’ve never thought that I am superior over anyone.

Stories like these frustrate me to no end. Especially being a guy, getting lumped into the same group as the disgusting men that see such things as touching women as normal because “they were asking for it.”
 

LeVeL

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You are citing a far-left source that's complaining about Kavanaugh despite there being absolutely no evidence that he ever did anything inappropriate. I'm more concerned about boys because they can be accused of anything by anyone with no evidence and then crucified, like so many college students have been. The fact is that there is no "rape culture" because we, as a society, absolutely do not tolerate sexual assault..... as long as there's evidence that it occurred. I'm fact we've gone too far the other way - just look at Azis Ansari who got accused of rape by a woman who voluntarily went out with him, voluntarily went to his place afterwards, chose not to leave when he flirted with her, voluntarily slept with him, but then regretted it in the morning and screamed "rape".
 

gaasc

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93Flareside;n3554105 said:
Stories like these frustrate me to no end. Especially being a guy, getting lumped into the same group as the disgusting men that see such things as touching women as normal because “they were asking for it.”

Oh dear, you have fallen into identity politics and have unwillingly discovered that most fun of its characteristics. Bundling everyone (males in this case) as a single unit to be easily labeled and/or dismissed.

Fortunately, the solution is to not pay attention to anyone doing this like when anyone says that "The internet" has decided to do [INSERT ANYTHING HERE]. Failing to do so will end up with you attempting to virtue signal into the "superior" group or to have any view you've ever had dismissed on account of you being...anything really (Male, white, conservative, living on a city that disagrees with whatever zeitgeist is popular, Liking a brand, even having a product of a brand)
 

Eye-Q

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LeVeL;n3554132 said:
You are citing a far-left source that's complaining about Kavanaugh despite there being absolutely no evidence that he ever did anything inappropriate. I'm more concerned about boys because they can be accused of anything by anyone with no evidence and then crucified, like so many college students have been. The fact is that there is no "rape culture" because we, as a society, absolutely do not tolerate sexual assault..... as long as there's evidence that it occurred. I'm fact we've gone too far the other way - just look at Azis Ansari who got accused of rape by a woman who voluntarily went out with him, voluntarily went to his place afterwards, chose not to leave when he flirted with her, voluntarily slept with him, but then regretted it in the morning and screamed "rape".
He's citing "a far-left source" while you are apparently adopting "far right" views which are equally exaggerated.

Yes, there is sexual harassment, rape and whatnot.

Yes, there are false accusations.


Both sides are broadly exaggerated by their respective media outlets, unfortunately both sides are so loud that moderate views seem to be oppressed which IMHO is the real problem here.


God damn it, does it have to be "us vs. them", "left vs. right", "democrats vs. republicans", "USA vs. all the other countries" instead of "let's work together and compromise to eradicate both sexual harassment, rape, whatnot and false accusations" (applies to other fields as well)? This is so tiring in a world which IMHO generally gets better for most people...
 

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How dare you try and use reason and sensibility to change the dynamics of an argument!!! :shakefist:


/sarcasm
 

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Eye-Q;n3554137 said:
God damn it, does it have to be "us vs. them", "left vs. right", "democrats vs. republicans", "USA vs. all the other countries" instead of "let's work together and compromise to eradicate both sexual harassment, rape, whatnot and false accusations" (applies to other fields as well)? This is so tiring in a world which IMHO generally gets better for most people...
B-b-b-but if I don't have an enemy who am I going to blame my personal problems on!?!? There also won't be any easy way for a political party to re-enforce my prejudices in order to gain easy support against their opposition...

Nope, sorry. Ain't gonna' work. Gotta' accept that everything is getting worse and the only way to fix things is get very angry at everybody who isn't me.
 

calvinhobbes

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captain_70s;n3554187 said:
Gotta' accept that everything is getting worse and the only way to fix things is get very angry at everybody who isn't me.
Exactly. Because you're [sic] own ideas are always the best, so everybody who isn't you must have inferior ones. Those people are barely even human, they might as well be apes.




disclaimer for LeVeL and his ilk: That was sarcasm. Enjoy taking it completely out of context should you ever feel like it, thereby proving the point.
 

Interrobang

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The Question is - how do we change stuff?
How do we teach the people in next generation that "trying to get close to someone" needs consent? That it's not ok to fill someone up with alcohol or drugs untill they cannot make a choice anymore and then try to have your way with them. That even when you have consentual intercourse with someone, it's still not ok to do stuff the other person hasn't agreed to.
Or that it's not ok to use a inbalance in power (in the workplace or otherwise) to blackmail someone into having sex with you. That it's not ok to "persue" someone after they've already told you to go away.
We cannot change the past, but how do we make sure these simple things that should fall under "don't do to others what you wouldn't want done to yourself" a reality for the future?

(You may notice that I did use gender neutral language here.)
 

93Flareside

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This is something that's struck me as odd because, it seems to have been taught to some children but not all as you still see people not getting the hint or having self control...

Shoot these people, allow them to contract a disgusting rash. I don't know what else to do.
 

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I side with Eye-Q's comment here.

I also have to show that LeVeL's concerns are not out of this world, what he said is really there. False accusations and a general push towards summary justice and sexism against men are actually happening, and at an increasing rate. This doesn't mean that harassment or rape or similar disgusting things don't happen towards women (and men, to be honest, although it is very difficult to get some numbers here, due to several reasons).

One of the reasons is the black vs. white vision Eye-Q mentioned: an imbalanced one that excludes gray areas, superpositions, or even the idea that people are individuals much more than they are part of a group, tends to generate fanaticism; and the reaction to fanaticism is division and opposite fanaticism.

The keyword is "divisive". To think that a problem may be solved simplistically by just classifying a group of people as "bad", putting the blame on all of them collectively and treating them differently from other groups, with no connection to what really happened or happens and to why, means to exacerbate in them an adverse reaction (and for good reasons!) and to generate hate and division.

Exactly what is supremely stupid between men and women: division. They have evolved to work together, not to fear each other.

Also, beware of how news are reported to you, particularly on these subjects: when you delve deeper than shallowness into the case and see what happened for real, it almost never is how the partisan media portraits it, and most of the times it is fuzzy at best and downright indecipherable at worst.
 

LeVeL

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Interrobang;n3554538 said:
The Question is - how do we change stuff?
How do we teach the people in next generation that "trying to get close to someone" needs consent? That it's not ok to fill someone up with alcohol or drugs untill they cannot make a choice anymore and then try to have your way with them. That even when you have consentual intercourse with someone, it's still not ok to do stuff the other person hasn't agreed to.
Or that it's not ok to use a inbalance in power (in the workplace or otherwise) to blackmail someone into having sex with you. That it's not ok to "persue" someone after they've already told you to go away.
We cannot change the past, but how do we make sure these simple things that should fall under "don't do to others what you wouldn't want done to yourself" a reality for the future?

(You may notice that I did use gender neutral language here.)
I don't think anyone thinks that those things are ok, at least no more so than murder is ok. There are sick people out there and there are evil people out there, you can't change that.

That said, we need to be very careful with drawing lines through gray areas. For example, you mention alcohol (consuming in excess is a personal choice but we'll leave that to another argument). There's a big difference between two college kids getting drunk at a party and hooking up versus sober guy watches a girl get blackout drunk and then takes advantage of her. In both cases the girl might regret it in the morning but in the first I'd say "stop getting so drunk and making bad life choices", while in the second I'd suggest that she call the police and report a sexual predator. Unfortunately across college campuses none of that happens. In both cases the guy would be publicly shamed and kicked out of school without due process or an opportunity to defend himself and the police wouldn't get involved so even if he really is a rapist he won't go to jail.
 
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