Snow!

[LeVeL]

You, on the other hand, seem to me to suffer a bit from hubris. I do "just get in and drive" all the time. And I think everyone should be a little scared of slippery roads...

I have no illusions - I'm no driving God. While I do exercise extra caution when driving in snow, I strongly disagree that a driver should be "scared" in extreme conditions. As for the emergency situation thing: of course given the same exact conditions a car will react better/quicker in the dry than the wet/snow. However, saying that snow tires are useless in any emergency situation is incorrect. For example, I once got very sideways around a turn in the snow and was heading across the road in the direction of a lamp post. I'd call that an emergency situation! However, I didn't get scared, didn't panic, and simply used driving technique to get myself out of harm's way. "Emergency situation" does not automatically imply that you have half a second to react

 

[Jupix]

I'd rather not bicker on the definition of "emergency". To me, a bit of oversteer does not constitute that, I was talking more about imminent collision with another vehicle or pedestrian, or really any situation where you might have no control over your surroundings, hence not being able to predict the effect turning your steering wheel / pressing your pedals will have on the outcome.

I'd rather not bicker on the definiton of "scared", either, because reading your post, to you it involves adrenaline, shaky hands and a bit of ugly colors in your driver's seat leather. I was using the word for a healthy respect for road conditions where if you don't have the best equipment possible, and driving skill in those conditions, you can get yourself into real trouble real soon. And if you personally respect the snow and the ice, then you're ok by my standard.

 

[LeVeL]

If you have no control over your surroundings and if you are unable to predict the effect of different inputs that you provide to the vehicle, you're in big big trouble :lol: And yes, I do respect snow and ice, but I do not necessarily fear them.

 

[narf]

I'm telling you, when you've got only a couple of seconds to react, there's absolutely nothing you can do to avoid the accident, the mass of your vehicle won't have the time it takes to change direction on a slippery surface, no matter how good your tires are, let alone come to a stop.

Maybe in your case there was no difference between different tyres, but there are situations where one type of tyre will stop you in time while the other won't, or at least reduce the impact from really dangerous to just expensive.

Snow tyres do have better braking power on snow, all sorts of tests show that. Your stopping distance decreases. Either you're really lucky and it moves the virtual point of stopping from inside the obstacle to in front of it and you entirely avoid an accident, or it lets you impact at a slower speed - which is more desirable in any case than a higher-energy impact.

 

[thomas]

my car likes snow, it would eat it if it could:

 

[prizrak]

prizrak This time you're just wrong, ok?

My experience of spinning wheels to get out of snowed in parking spots in two different cars with all season tires seems to suggest otherwise. It basically shovels snow under my tires and lets me move. There is obviously a method to it outside of just flooring it but to say that spinning tires won't work is not QUITE accurate.

A friend once floored the throttle on his Lada, as he got stuck on an ice track. The speedo went up to 180km/h as the car was still sitting where it was, spinning its wheels.
He must've built up a shitload of traction.

I'm too lazy to look this up but I saw an article on tractor racing at some point (where they pull huge loads with tractors) and it explained how traction works on mud with spinning wheels. I don't remember the specifics much.

Well, the Mercedes doesn't need LSD in situations like the C-class had as it has the electronic LSD.

I have the same LSD system its called EDL - electronic diff lock, it sux. When you are dealing with snow you are never going to have enough traction to get any kind of use out of it. Simply because as soon as the EDL engages and transfers torque to the other side you are going to overload what little traction you have. This is actually one of the drawbacks of running a helical.

I'd rather not bicker on the definition of "emergency". To me, a bit of oversteer does not constitute that, I was talking more about imminent collision with another vehicle or pedestrian, or really any situation where you might have no control over your surroundings, hence not being able to predict the effect turning your steering wheel / pressing your pedals will have on the outcome.

I'd rather not bicker on the definiton of "scared", either, because reading your post, to you it involves adrenaline, shaky hands and a bit of ugly colors in your driver's seat leather. I was using the word for a healthy respect for road conditions where if you don't have the best equipment possible, and driving skill in those conditions, you can get yourself into real trouble real soon. And if you personally respect the snow and the ice, then you're ok by my standard.

If you can prevent it there is no reason to be scared because you need a cool head to avoid the situation. If you cannot avoid the situation it's too late to be scared so you might as well not bother

 

[Pry]

My experience of spinning wheels to get out of snowed in parking spots in two different cars with all season tires seems to suggest otherwise. It basically shovels snow under my tires and lets me move. There is obviously a method to it outside of just flooring it but to say that spinning tires won't work is not QUITE accurate.

So have you really been stuck or has there just been a little snow on the parking lot and you have driven out of there spinning your wheels?
When you're driving in deep snow and you get stuck (your car stops and your wheels just spins with no traction) it's the last thing you should do as you'll just dig your car deeper.

I'm too lazy to look this up but I saw an article on tractor racing at some point (where they pull huge loads with tractors) and it explained how traction works on mud with spinning wheels. I don't remember the specifics much.

Right. :lol:
As far as I know they are not stuck when they spin their wheels.

I have the same LSD system its called EDL - electronic diff lock, it sux. When you are dealing with snow you are never going to have enough traction to get any kind of use out of it. Simply because as soon as the EDL engages and transfers torque to the other side you are going to overload what little traction you have. This is actually one of the drawbacks of running a helical.

Yes, Audi uses the term EDL. I haven't had similar experiences with my '07 E92, my mum's W204 4matic or my dad's Q5. My car moves much better on snow and slippery surfaces than any other rwd car I've driven without the function or with less sophisticated one. It's like night and day between my E92 and my previous '02 E46.

If you can prevent it there is no reason to be scared because you need a cool head to avoid the situation. If you cannot avoid the situation it's too late to be scared so you might as well not bother

I think he meant that he respects slippery conditions. It doesn't mean that you'll have to shit your pants when something happens.

 

[MXM]

He must've built up a shitload of traction.

I lolled :lol:

 

[prizrak]

So have you really been stuck or has there just been a little snow on the parking lot and you have driven out of there spinning your wheels?
When you're driving in deep snow and you get stuck (your car stops and your wheels just spins with no traction) it's the last thing you should do as you'll just dig your car deeper.

With the FWD it was about a foot or so of snow (thank you snow plows), last time I got stuck I had to shovel a good amount of snow out of the way but it was still pretty close to the bottom of the car (again thank you snow plows). I won't lie that took me a while, and I did do the whole rocking back and forth but there was a good amount of wheel spin involved in it.

I am not contesting that just sitting there spinning wheels is the best (or even a good) way to get out of snow all I'm contesting is you saying that spinning wheels is *always* a bad thing.

As far as I know they are not stuck when they spin their wheels.

They start off on mud with a huge weight strapped to them and they spin the tires the entire way down the "track"

Yes, Audi uses the term EDL. I haven't had similar experiences with my '07 E92, my mum's W204 4matic or my dad's Q5. My car moves much better on snow and slippery surfaces than any other rwd car I've driven without the function or with less sophisticated one. It's like night and day between my E92 and my previous '02 E46.

Again, not talking about driving down a slippery road, only talking about getting out of snow, EDL and TC are completely useless in those conditions. I saw a BMW X drive (cant remember what model) trying to get out of snow with TC engaged and he couldn't even move because the car kept braking wheels as soon as any slip occurs. Wasn't a lot of snow on the ground either. It also highly depends on the way the TC is tuned, in my car it allows for a certain amount of slip before kicking in. Even enough to do a bit of a sidestep in the dry

I think he meant that he respects slippery conditions. It doesn't mean that you'll have to shit your pants when something happens.

Twas me being silly

 

[Blind_Io]

What blind said. Basically in low traction situations such as snow spinning wheels is one of the ways you build up some traction. You can see that most readily in WRC, they are always going around turns sideways because that lets them maintain some semblance of grip.

That's not what I said.

Spinning the tires won't get you traction, it will melt the snow and glaze the ice and reduce traction. Once you break traction and start to spin you need to get off the throttle and let the tires regain grip.

It's funny as hell to watch people try to spin their way up my hill in the winter. They just slowly lose momentum until they hit the steeper grade and then, with tires still doing 50+ mph, start slowly sliding backwards.

 

[Davetouch]

It snowed again today, but it was only a little shower. The important news is its all melting now. Some say it will freeze up again tonight, but I don't think it will. Its even supposed to rain tomorrow! Finally Britain breaks free of its 'absolute carnage' brought only by the incompetence of its population.

But its all OK that our delivery of grit will arrive from overseas on the 26th because the grit from our salt mines couldn't be transported around due to icy roads. At double the cost per tonne.

 

[AiR]

Only -5 here now, it's almost summer.

 

[frankiess]

You can see that most readily in WRC, they are always going around turns sideways because that lets them maintain some semblance of grip.

Funny that no one mentioned this. Rally drivers use thin tyres, which rather than grip, slice through the snow or rubble while drifting in corners, resulting in a traction-like effect.

Concerning the tractor-pulling, I would think their tyres have huge grooves which dig into the mud. But take a theoretical scenario where the grooves are full of mud, resulting in a slick tyre. I promise you, all the tyre spinning in the world won't give them grip after that.

Also, spinning your tyres into a hole while trying to get out of a tough parking space will polish the snow or slush beneath them into an ice-like surface. And after your tyre grooves are full of snow, you're gonna be totally stuck in four icy holes.

 

[prizrak]

That's not what I said.

Spinning the tires won't get you traction, it will melt the snow and glaze the ice and reduce traction. Once you break traction and start to spin you need to get off the throttle and let the tires regain grip.

It's funny as hell to watch people try to spin their way up my hill in the winter. They just slowly lose momentum until they hit the steeper grade and then, with tires still doing 50+ mph, start slowly sliding backwards.

ROFL that is funny. Like I said there is certain amount of spin that has to be involved in getting out of a snowed in parking spot, no avoiding it really. Going up a hill I can't say since I never encounter hills steep enough to give me trouble. I generally don't have wheel spin when I'm driving in either FWD or AWD (never got to drive RWD in snow) but I tend to take it VERY easy in snow because stopping distance sucks no matter what.

Funny that no one mentioned this. Rally drivers use thin tyres, which rather than grip, slice through the snow or rubble while drifting in corners, resulting in a traction-like effect.

I did not consider that good point.

Also, spinning your tyres into a hole while trying to get out of a tough parking space will polish the snow or slush beneath them into an ice-like surface. And after your tyre grooves are full of snow, you're gonna be totally stuck in four icy holes.

True but as I pointed out there is different amount of wheel spin, a certain amount of spin is simply unavoidable.

 

[Pry]

Basically in low traction situations such as snow spinning wheels is one of the ways you build up some traction.

Well this is just not true.

True but as I pointed out there is different amount of wheel spin, a certain amount of spin is simply unavoidable.

In most cases it is unavoidable but you should try to minimize it. That's one reason off-roaders have a low range gearbox so it's easier to start without spinning your wheels too much.

Again, not talking about driving down a slippery road, only talking about getting out of snow, EDL and TC are completely useless in those conditions. I saw a BMW X drive (cant remember what model) trying to get out of snow with TC engaged and he couldn't even move because the car kept braking wheels as soon as any slip occurs. Wasn't a lot of snow on the ground either. It also highly depends on the way the TC is tuned, in my car it allows for a certain amount of slip before kicking in. Even enough to do a bit of a sidestep in the dry

Doesn't seem to bother my BMW but it's manual. The engine would stall if the wheels stopped spinning. The "EDL" is always working and it's doing its job just fine.
You can see the Xdrive working on the latest episode of Top Gear. It was trying but the tires were just rubbish.

I shot a video so you can see the "EDL" working:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sd5zcw5otp8

Now I'm just thinking what the hell was I thinking when going off-road with my M Sport Coupe. :?
At least the snow was pretty soft so no damage was done.

I'm more worried about the tires than the brakes. The brakes are designed to cope with... well.. braking.

 

[prizrak]

In most cases it is unavoidable but you should try to minimize it. That's one reason off-roaders have a low range gearbox so it's easier to start without spinning your wheels too much.

Tis true.

Doesn't seem to bother my BMW but it's manual. The engine would stall if the wheels stopped spinning. The "EDL" is always working and it's doing its job just fine.
You can see the Xdrive working on the latest episode of Top Gear. It was trying but the tires were just rubbish.

Yeah I remember that, BMW tunes their X Drive differently in their SUV's though. Also the car I saw was like 3-4 years ago they might have made revisions. I have stalled trying to get out of the really snowed in parking spot last time I got stuck (it was pretty bad) didn't know you could stall an auto....

I shot a video so you can see the "EDL" working:

Hmm interesting vid, it looks like it equalizes wheel spin rather than stop one wheel and spin the other I need to have someone do the same in my car.

 

[Blind_Io]

In most cases it is unavoidable but you should try to minimize it. That's one reason off-roaders have a low range gearbox so it's easier to start without spinning your wheels too much.

No.

The reason off road vehicles have low-range is so they can ascend very steep slopes and have better control coming down. It has nothing to do with tire spin.

In fact, having massive low-end torque on snow is a bad thing. One of the key things that the Winter Driving Mode does on cars is force the transmission to start out in second gear instead of first. This reduces the power to the wheels when trying to overcome the car's static inertia - the time when you are most likely to slip. By reducing the torque, the engine has to work a bit harder, but the tires are able to hold traction and get the car moving without the drama of wheel spin.

When I'm driving my XTerra in the snow I'm always spinning the tires in first gear, it's much easier to start in second and avoid the tire spin.

Start in second and short-shift to keep the revs low and stay out of the power band.

 

[thevictor390]

My one experience in regard to wheelspin was when I parked my Sebring in the driveway on its all-seasons (or whatever crap it came with), facing slightly up hill. It got stuck of course when it snowed, and I tried to gently ease it out, and rock back and forth a bit. Eventually I got frustrated, having little experience in the matter and not knowing the best thing to do. So I floored it. I was out in seconds :lol:

 

[Blind_Io]

If the consistency of the snow is right you can sometimes "paddle" your way out with wheel spin, but it often chews up the tires when they get down to the pavement. Also, if the snow is too deep or too thick then you just make the problem worse.

Sometimes it works, but when it doesn't there's pretty much nothing short of a tow that will get you out of the ice you just created.

 

[Clegko]

No.

The reason off road vehicles have low-range is so they can ascend very steep slopes and have better control coming down. It has nothing to do with tire spin.

In fact, having massive low-end torque on snow is a bad thing. One of the key things that the Winter Driving Mode does on cars is force the transmission to start out in second gear instead of first. This reduces the power to the wheels when trying to overcome the car's static inertia - the time when you are most likely to slip. By reducing the torque, the engine has to work a bit harder, but the tires are able to hold traction and get the car moving without the drama of wheel spin.

When I'm driving my XTerra in the snow I'm always spinning the tires in first gear, it's much easier to start in second and avoid the tire spin.

Start in second and short-shift to keep the revs low and stay out of the power band.

Problem with my car in the snow/ice is that it has a lot of torque about 300rpm above idle, then nothing until about 3000 or so; thus I nearly always get wheel spin of some sort. It is quite annoying, but it's gotten to the point where I just get fed up and give it a boot full and get moving.