Terrorists strike yet again

prizrak

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People do, but they will be in specific areas of countries.

*cough* Republicans *cough* Trump supporters *cough*

Basically what Lev said, there are no fundamentalist Christian or Jewish countries in the world. Even crazies like WBC are basically just a bunch of loud mouth assholes that don't really do anything to hurt people. Vast majority of muslim countries on the other hand (even the somewhat moderate ones) are basically horrible from a western standpoint.
 

mpicco

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Basically what Lev said, there are no fundamentalist Christian or Jewish countries in the world. Even crazies like WBC are basically just a bunch of loud mouth assholes that don't really do anything to hurt people. Vast majority of muslim countries on the other hand (even the somewhat moderate ones) are basically horrible from a western standpoint.

It's a minority, most Muslim states are fairly moderate, but still that minority is too trouble some and I think it's genuinely dishonest to say Islam has nothing to do with sparking this amount and type of hate.

A book which tells you to kill infidels is just a token of a bygone age of violence and bloody conquest. It has no place in the modern world, and those trying to justify that the paragraphs are just metaphors to fight the "inner enemies" and be a better person are just dishonest.
 

prizrak

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It's a minority, most Muslim states are fairly moderate,

Umm... no they are not... Iraqi Kurdistan and Turkey are about the only Muslim states that are, rest are very much not.

- - - Updated - - -

I meant it that way ... and I?m quite glad you consider it insulting too. If your reaction would have been "CoD, great idea", I?d be more worried ...

I quite enjoyed that game :dunno:
 

mpicco

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Umm... no they are not... Iraqi Kurdistan and Turkey are about the only Muslim states that are, rest are very much not.

You're falling into the "muslim=middle east" mistake, the most populous Muslim country is Indonesia and it is a pretty okay society all in all.
 

prizrak

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sonza68

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Compared to the countries that will kill you for being gay that is pretty mild.
 

mpicco

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I said okay, not super awesome... as in we won't decapitate you for just saying the wrong thing.
From the same website, for the US:

Yet, particularly in the areas of criminal justice, immigration, and national security, US laws and practices routinely violate rights.

This doesn't excuse anything, mind you, just means all countries have their gray areas.
 

cdeburca

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Woman and three young daughters stabbed in the Alps for being too scantily-dressed. They were wearing t-shirt and shorts.

Guess who?

Cue more liberal hand-wringing, navel-gazing and useless talk about how it's "only a small minority".

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion

You describe every religion there. Islam is not different from the other religions in that aspect.
Islam is hugely different, seriously. Here's what the BBC has to say - "All aspects of a Muslim's life are governed by sharia" (my emphasis). Buddhism, by contrast, is more of a philosophy (and a rather nice one at that). Catholicism is a series of rules and guidelines - you can summarise it maybe in the Ten Commandments - and a general request that you be nice to each other (and some natsy bits, in Leviticus in particular, that we mostly ignore). If you're saying Islam is the same as other religions, you don't really know what you're talking about I'm afraid.

The question with every religion is not if it wants to govern every part of your life (they all do), but if you let it.
If you let it? There's no "if" in Islam - apostasy is punishable by death. How are you going to decide for yourself not to follow some part of Islam if it's a potential death penalty?

The current mass immigration of refugees is due to them fleeing from the very same radical islam that is giving us this conversation about terrorism to start with.
Actually, many are economic refugees chancing their arm after Merkel threw the doors of Europe open. Watch the documentary Greece by Simon Reeve; he speaks to a number of refugees. Some are quite open about that they're not fleeing from anything; they just heard Europe was easier to get into. (Others he spoke to are quite normal people; others are nasty misogynists)


You may believe that it is the opposite of what you are suggesting, but that is where you are very wrong. You are proposing to abolish important cornerstones of our culture in order to fight Jihadi terrorism.
What important cornerstone am I proposing to abolish?

Do you think we have religious freedom? We don't - try bringing the Westboro Baptist Church here. In fact, all our freedoms are governed by laws. We don't have free speech. We are perfectly entitled to decide what you can and can't wear (e.g. a burqa) because we already have laws on what you can and can't wear. Don't believe me? Try walking down the street naked and see how far you get.

Sorry, you haven't explained this at all.


I meant it more in a way of proposing our culture and our values and going "hey this works great for us, maybe you wanna try this too" - without the invading, plundering and general nastiness. Offering our culture as a proposal, not doing a conversion by force.
Show me one time that has worked in history, ever. The closest you can come is American TV, and even then that creates problems when immigrants find out the beautiful way of life depicted isn't an attainable reality for them, and a lot of America is actually quite rough.
 

prizrak

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I said okay, not super awesome... as in we won't decapitate you for just saying the wrong thing.
From the same website, for the US:
This doesn't excuse anything, mind you, just means all countries have their gray areas.
I'm not aware of any US law that violates human rights, certain law enforcement officers/agencies might from time to time but that's a far cry from specifically passing laws to do so. Even then most human rights violations US does is external, Muslim countries do it to their own citizens.

Sure countries have gray areas, I would argue that putting someone in jail for being a holocaust denier is a human rights violation but I don't think you would argue that Austria is on par with Indonesia...
Try walking down the street naked and see how far you get.
Perfectly legal in many countries.
 
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prizrak

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*ahem* The death penalty?

Debatable at best, it's a punishment reserved for only the worst of the worst. Besides by that logic any imprisonment is a violation of human rights or do you think we should let criminals roam free?
 

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In the context of wrongful punishment for example, prison is much more human rights compatible than the death penalty. If you happen to be wrong, you can at least let someone out of prison.
 

prizrak

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In the context of wrongful punishment for example, prison is much more human rights compatible than the death penalty. If you happen to be wrong, you can at least let someone out of prison.

That's assuming that a wrongfully imprisoned person didn't already do their time and that it was discovered. Or hell that they even survived in prison long enough to be let out. You can argue against death penalty as means of punishment but it has little to do with human rights. What offense carriers such a severe punishment is what matters.
 

prizrak

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It's not just me thinking the death penalty doesn't align with human rights: http://www.ohchr.org/EN/Issues/DeathPenalty/Pages/DPIndex.aspx
I disagree, human rights don't include not being punished for crimes. The question then becomes of how proportional the punishment is to the crime in question. Death penalty in itself is perhaps immoral and incompatible with certain values but not on its own is a human rights violation.

Punishment for being gay (even a mild one) on the other hand would be a human rights violation.
 

ahpadt

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Death penalities are inhumane and do not belong in "Western societies". It's an ancient piece of politics that people forgot to put a stop to. EU countries are banned to exercise it for a reason.
 

prizrak

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Death penalities are inhumane and do not belong in "Western societies". It's an ancient piece of politics that people forgot to put a stop to. EU countries are banned to exercise it for a reason.
You think life in prison is more humane than a quick and painless death? Remember we are talking people who we have deemed to be dangerous enough to society that we can never hope to reintegrate them again.
 

LeVeL

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On the one hand, I take issue with the ability of government to legally kill someone. On the other hand, I do believe that some people should be taken out of society... permanently. My suggestion is that we throw rapists and child molesters into general population in prisons - they won't last a week.
 

prizrak

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On the one hand, I take issue with the ability of government to legally kill someone. On the other hand, I do believe that some people should be taken out of society... permanently. My suggestion is that we throw rapists and child molesters into general population in prisons - they won't last a week.

I think they already do. I'm not arguing for death penalty, but I don't see the punishment itself as a human rights violation. Even to narf's point of being wrongfully convicted it's not like executions take place right after sentencing there are still a ton of appeals and such and usually takes years before the actual execution.
 
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