The 2020 elections, news, and discussions

[Mr. Nice]

This is clearly a case of the lesser of two evils. While one is clearly worse than the other, it does not make the least worse a good choice, just the better than the other.

On the upside, we will see far less crazy.

Doesn't this make you long for Hillary though?

I voted for Hillary in 2016. I doubt that the future of the post office would be in jeopardy had Hillary won the presidency (she did win the popular vote). The other concerns that I mentioned in my previous post would also have been unlikely issues. Now, if our current authoritarian leader doesn't steal the upcoming election, we will have someone who we can only hope will steer us away from the rocks.

 

[GRtak]

Like drinking orange juice after brushing your teeth.

That is a terrible analogy. In this case it is a choice between getting shot in the ass, or getting shot in the knee.

 

[gaasc]

 

[Blind_Io]

I'm going to be voting for Biden, not because I like him or all his policies - because I want a functioning government and right now we don't have one. The GOP is trying to promote third party candidates to split the opposition ticket and give Trump the win without the popular vote; it's the same thing they did in 2016 and have done for decades. They will try to play off the cynicism about Biden and politics in general to create a movement of "protest votes" that will only serve to keep the GOP in office and ensure four more years of ... (*gestures wildly at everything*).

It's not getting shot in the ass or the foot, it's the difference between a pebble in my shoe or looking at my bloody bandaged right foot and then carefully taking aim and shooting myself in the left foot thinking it's going to somehow solve the problem of the bullet hole in my right foot.

 

[Momentum57]

You're living in a fantasy world.

I think it's more that Im not into cynical absolutism. Better to try than cry.

The Affordable Care Act, which Biden will continue with, leaves tens of millions of Americans uninsured.

If you watched Biden and Obama's meet up video you can hear how they refer to it like a "starter home". It's not going to be the last word in healthcare or not need mending or additions. I would love if we could, like the developed world, have single payer now. Arguing that rebuilding the ACA with additions is a fools errand because it's not single payer so why try is absolutism and thankfully our system has never worked that way.

Biden wants to increase police funding, and his idea for preventing killings of civilians by police is to train them to shoot people in the leg.

By 300 million because body cameras cost money, because new training cost money, because new shit cost money. Defund the police isn't overnight. You are dealing with institution change. The very DOJ investigation teams tasked to review police conduct was closed by Trump. Reopening that will cost money too, but its effects will be felt.

https://www.usnews.com/news/nationa...tment-ends-cops-office-review-of-local-police

Biden won't rebuild anything. We should all be hoping that he can and will save things like the ACA, social security and Medicare, the national parks, the EPA, etc.

What is the difference of "save things" vs rebuild that you are saying? What does "save" the EPA mean other to rebuild? It's a completely executive controlled item that will be rebuilt in it's staffing, enforcement, and regulatory action. You think that they would just save it by not rehiring for the positions Trump cut?

Your complaint is that Biden won't rebuild anything I guess you buy in to the idea that the house wouldn't be in Democrats hands either. But you say he should "save" the ACA that you complain leaves out tens of millions but Democrats couldn't possibly pass new legislation to build it back better.

All it sounds like is rock throwing. We wouldn't have had Every Student Succeeds if not for No Child Left Behind... Just because the first piece of legislation doesn't accomplish everything or is compromised doesn't mean it's foundations won't be used in subsequent legislation.

I agree with @93Flareside This is about getting rid of Trump in an attempt to stop things from becoming worse.

Then what? I agree Trump is making things worse. Then what?

https://joebiden.com/joes-vision/

Even if you think that his policies will fall short... Why is reaching for a better future somehow a bad thing?

 

[93Flareside]

I think it's more that Im not into cynical absolutism. Better to try than cry.



If you watched Biden and Obama's meet up video you can hear how they refer to it like a "starter home". It's not going to be the last word in healthcare or not need mending or additions. I would love if we could, like the developed world, have single payer now. Arguing that rebuilding the ACA with additions is a fools errand because it's not single payer so why try is absolutism and thankfully our system has never worked that way.



By 300 million because body cameras cost money, because new training cost money, because new shit cost money. Defund the police isn't overnight. You are dealing with institution change. The very DOJ investigation teams tasked to review police conduct was closed by Trump. Reopening that will cost money too, but its effects will be felt.

https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2017-09-15/justice-department-ends-cops-office-review-of-local-police?context



What is the difference of "save things" vs rebuild that you are saying? What does "save" the EPA mean other to rebuild? It's a completely executive controlled item that will be rebuilt in it's staffing, enforcement, and regulatory action. You think that they would just save it by not rehiring for the positions Trump cut?

Your complaint is that Biden won't rebuild anything I guess you buy in to the idea that the house wouldn't be in Democrats hands either. But you say he should "save" the ACA that you complain leaves out tens of millions but Democrats couldn't possibly pass new legislation to build it back better.

All it sounds like is rock throwing. We wouldn't have had Every Student Succeeds if not for No Child Left Behind... Just because the first piece of legislation doesn't accomplish everything or is compromised doesn't mean it's foundations won't be used in subsequent legislation.



Then what? I agree Trump is making things worse. Then what?

https://joebiden.com/joes-vision/

Even if you think that his policies will fall short... Why is reaching for a better future somehow a bad thing?

it’s not, but being realistic rather than thinking Biden will fix it all is better.

 

[Momentum57]

it’s not, but being realistic rather than thinking Biden will fix it all is better.

I don't know where you got that anyone is even saying that? I have video of Trump saying "he alone can fix it". But (looks back at post) nupe. I mention foundations of legislation, the house, "It's not going to be the last word in healthcare or not need mending or additions"... Yeah never said it will be all better. It's realistic to think that a mature leader like Biden will have a better handle on welding congress to producing better legislation though.

so I guess I don't get it: What's unrealistic about saying he's will rebuild agencies? What's unrealistic about saying Biden will be a better President than Donald?

 

[Mr. Nice]

"Save" is different from "rebuild" in the same way that "than" is different from "then ." I suggest you buy yourself a dictionary.

 

[Momentum57]

So if he "saves" the EPA you mean he cant hire new people? He cant retask enforcement officers? He can only "save" it? He has to accept what Trump did and while its the prerogative of a President to task executive agencies he cant do anything but keep the Trump status quo? Hes going to rebuild the EPA.

I guess why im frustrated is for me i'm hearing the choice is between serving to my friends, family, and every American: a bowl of turds or a sirloin steak and you're complaining that it's not a filet mignon but even then you would have prefered if it was duck...

So i'm standing here asking: so everyone gets this choice and your only kinda more for the sirloin than giving my friends, family, and every American blood poisoning from a bowl of turds because it's not duck?

 

[Momentum57]

"Save" is different from "rebuild" in the same way that "than" is different from "then ." I suggest you buy yourself a dictionary.

You think it should have been written "Biden will be a better President then Donald?" vs how I wrote it

Biden will be a better President than Donald?

 

[Mr. Nice]

Biden is your saviour. We get that. The idea that you are capable of forcing others to share in your opinion is at best wrong-headed.

 

[Momentum57]

I haven't called him my saviour or said he'll fix everything hes the politician i'm supporting. My question is after Flair said it, you said you agree, and I agree Trump is making things worse. Then what?

WHATS NEXT? We all agreed Donald is bad. SO THEN WHAT HAPPENED?

Do you want it to be well we all hemmed and hawed over if it was more reasonable to say save vs rebuild and then we got another 4 years of Trump?

There is no "I don't like trump" line. You can vote for Biden.

 

[gaasc]

Well, it is to be expected from someone who is that involved in the Biden campaign. Some of his work is to call for donations for him. Also remember this is the guy who literally wishes for people to die a horrible death if they do not renounce trump.

 

[Momentum57]

Well, it is to be expected from someone who is that involved in the Biden campaign. Some of his work is to call for donations for him. Also remember this is the guy who literally wishes for people to die a horrible death if they do not renounce trump.

I said that people who dont wear mask deserve not to receive medical treatment and perhaps die as a consequence. They are Trump supporters by in large.

Gaasc supports Trump And Mr.Nice doesnt like Biden

Cry yourself a river. Maybe you can paddle yourselves to a reality where the two viable candidates are not Trump and Biden

 

[Blind_Io]

Biden is your saviour. We get that. The idea that you are capable of forcing others to share in your opinion is at best wrong-headed.

This is Trump-like thinking. Biden is not going to be a perfect president; I don't think any one here is expecting him to be. He's already got policies that I disagree with and I honestly think that 40 years ago he would have made an excellent Republican. None of these things are the issue. On one hand you have a proud sexual predator and probable child rapist who is chummy with child sex traffickers, a misogynist, racist, classist, uneducated, narcissistic, antisocial personality who fancies himself a dictator -- a man who in three years managed to tank the greatest economic recovery we've ever seen, balloon the national debt with handouts to the super-rich, abdicate responsibility and leadership in a way that led to the greatest disease outbreak in over a century, engage in openly corrupt and illegal behavior, run the office for personal enrichment and lie more than any President in history. He's supported by a cadre of yes-men who are getting their cut; men who have sold out for their own gains at the expense of the nation. This is the group that has effectively ended 200 years of American international leadership.

On the other hand, you have Joe Biden - who I believe is honestly interested in serving the country and making it a better place. I may disagree with him on the path to get there, but I don't see any reason to doubt his motives. He has experience in the White House and politics, he's generally respected domestically and abroad - and he's a functioning adult who can make decisions based on facts, evidence, and the input of his advisers. He's no savior who will fix everything, that's the line Trump used. I haven't heard anyone, including Biden, say that he alone will "fix" or "save" anything, only that he will serve honestly.

Biden is not an ideal candidate, he's not even the one I would like to see running - but he's getting my support because the alternative is unimaginable. Imagine the damage Trump could do with four more years in office, knowing that there's nothing on the other side of it except criminal charges and prison? Everyone fears the second term of their political opponent because they are less moderate in their decisions, knowing they can't run again.

Try to imagine that what we have seen is the restrained version of Trump and the GOP.

That's why I'm supporting Biden - and from what I've seen, it's also why most people are also supporting him.

 

[Momentum57]

 

[Mr. Nice]

I am hoping that Biden will save the USPS, but I'm not counting on it. It's really supposed to be in the control of the Congress, but that's a constitutional issue. Trump has pushed things further in the direction of opening up protected lands, privatizing the postal service, etc.

I'm not against Biden. However, in my red state, where my vote won't count, I have absolutely no reason to vote for someone like him. If I lived somewhere else, I'd probably hold my nose and vote for him.

We are all hoping that Biden will take things in a better direction. Only time will tell. His track record is more than somewhat abysmal on some key issues. This includes Social Security, which we may also soon find to be in jeopardy.

The Post Office and Social Security are entities that will continue to exist without being "rebuilt." They need funding and leadership. Without those two things, they will die. Trump knows this, and is using it to his advantage.

 

[Blind_Io]

I wouldn't count your vote out. I also live in a VERY red state, and Trump won with only about 41% (if memory serves) because the GOP worked to split the ticket. This year we have a real chance of flipping Texas and maybe even Utah - or at least making them swing states. Demographics have changed in the last four years - don't let you state be a sure thing for the GOP. Even if your state goes for Trump, if we can shave percentage points off their majority it will send a message to the GOP that they are starting to lose their base.

 

[Momentum57]

On Aug. 8, 2020, U.S. President Donald Trump said he intended to "terminate the tax," referring to Social Security and Medicare payroll taxes. It's a step that would — if taken in isolation — remove nearly 90% of funding for Social Security benefits, and thus likely pose a threat to the continued existence of those programs.

“If I’m victorious on November 3rd, I plan to forgive these taxes and make permanent cuts to the payroll tax. So I’m going to make them all permanent … If I win, I may extend and terminate. In other words, I’ll extend it beyond the end of the year and terminate the tax. And so, we’ll see what happens.”

vs

III. PRESERVE AND STRENGTHEN SOCIAL SECURITY

Social Security is the bedrock of American retirement. Roughly 90% of retirement-age Americans receive Social Security benefits, and one-in-four rely on Social Security for all, or almost all, of their income. The program has not only ensured that middle-class workers can enjoy the sound and secure retirement they worked so hard for, it also lifted over 17 million older Americans out of poverty in 2017 alone.

The Biden Plan will protect Social Security for the millions of Americans who depend on the program. With Social Security’s Trust Fund already in deficit and expected to be exhausted in 2035, we urgently need action to make the program solvent and prevent cuts to American retirees.

But the Biden Plan doesn’t stop there. As president, Joe Biden will strengthen benefits for the most vulnerable older Americans – including widows and widowers, lifelong workers with low monthly benefits, and old-age beneficiaries who may have exhausted their other savings. Specifically, the Biden Plan will:

• Put Social Security on a path to long-run solvency. The impending exhaustion of the Social Security Trust fund imperils American retirement as we know it. Waiting to act only jeopardizes the program further, and will make an eventual solution that much more difficult. The Biden Plan will put the program on a path to long-term solvency by asking Americans with especially high wages to pay the same taxes on those earnings that middle-class families pay.
• Preserve the nature of Social Security. Social Security is one of our nation’s great public policy successes, in large part due to the fact that participation in the program is shared across almost all workers. Efforts to privatize the program – such as an approach suggested under the Bush Administration – will undermine the program’s solvency, while putting at risk individuals’ income in retirement. Similarly, proposals to make the program “means-tested” – so that only low-income retirees workers receive benefits – jeopardizes the program’s universal nature and key role as the bedrock of American retirement. Ultimately, the success of Social Security is largely due to the fact that almost all Americans can rely on the program to make their retirement more secure.
• Provide a higher benefit for the oldest Americans. At advanced ages, Americans become more vulnerable to exhausting their savings, sometimes falling into poverty and living a life of hardship. The Biden Plan will provide the oldest beneficiaries – those who have been receiving retirement benefits for at least 20 years – with a higher monthly check to help protect retirees from the pain of dwindling retirement savings.
• Implement a true minimum benefit for lifelong workers. No one who has worked for decades and paid into Social Security should have to spend their retirement in poverty. The Biden Plan will revolutionize the Social Security’s minimum benefit, which has deteriorated over time to the point of being entirely ineffective. Under the Biden Plan, workers who spent 30 years working will get a benefit of at least 125% of the poverty level.
• Protect widows and widowers from steep cuts in benefits. For many couples, the death of a spouse means that Social Security benefits will be cut in half – putting pressure on the surviving spouse who still needs to make the mortgage payment and handle other bills. The Biden Plan will allow surviving spouse to keep a higher share of the benefits. This will make an appreciable difference in the finances of older Americans, especially women (who live longer on average than men), raising the monthly payment by about 20% for affected beneficiaries.
• Eliminate penalties for teachers and other public-sector workers. Current rules penalize teachers and other public sector workers who either switch jobs or who have earned retirement benefits from various sources. The Biden Plan would eliminate these penalties by ensuring that teachers not eligible for Social Security will begin receiving benefits sooner – rather than the current ten-year period for many teachers. The Biden Plan will also get rid of the benefit cuts for workers and surviving beneficiaries who happen to be covered by both Social Security and another pension. These workers deserve the benefits they earned.

https://joebiden.com/older-americans/

 

[gaasc]

Gaasc supports Trump And Mr.Nice doesnt like Biden
Cry yourself a river. Maybe you can paddle yourselves to a reality where the two viable candidates are not Trump and Biden

Just a point of note here: I don't support Trump, but It's nice to know I've already been categorized for easy dismissal. What I do support is discourse and analysis, and that's really hard when you (general you) elevate a candidate as a savior in the face of literally satan as is often the case on extremely politicized and radicalized societies (as the US has become). For example, this discussion began with semantics.

Personally, I believe that the Biden presidency will at best mark a return to the milquetoast neoliberal drab that has fluctuated in the corridors of the US power since the 90s, with a legislative body too focused on its carreer to make any actual decision on policy while leaving the executive to rule through executive order to a degree that hasn't been seen since Truman. This is likely to be better than Trump's "whatever I want to" leadership, especially as you deal with COVID fallout.

However, that is at best, Biden's constant gaffes and visible confusion on public events should remind people of late Reagan or Trump needing two hands to raise a glass. His choice of VP is also somewhat loaded politically, not to mention that just last year, she was on the group of people against Biden for the reports of him inappropriately touching women.

Going "BUT TRUUUUUUUUMP" is not an excuse. If you will pick the lesser evil (and @Mr. Nice , I agree with @Blind_Io that you should go and vote even if you believe your vote is not worth much) you must at least acknowledge that evil. Otherwise you end up exactly like you are right now, where wishing for better candidates apparently involves paddling to an alternate dimension.