The Aviation Thread [Contains Lots of Awesome Pictures]

There's more to the story than just per-aircraft cost. The real intended benefit of the F-35 is that it will help consolidate maintenance and support costs across different military agencies. The US DoD can buy in bulk the needed spare parts and ground support equipment and have it standardized across the USAF, Navy, and Marines. Basically, they save money by not having to establish numerous contracts to cover the needs of all three agencies as well as logistical costs to distribute and maintain that equipment. It will also cut down on the need to transport said support equipment between bases for contingency operations. For example, an F-15 might require a different hydraulic fluid servicing cart than an F-18 does. So if an F-18 unit deploys to a predominantly F-15 base they have to bring all their specialized equipment with them. Shipping all that stuff isn't cheap. In the long run I don't think it will be as much as a financial catastrophe that it's being made out to be right now.

He did NOT co-design the F-16. He helped come up with the specs for the original LWF proposal. He was also deridded by the USAF and most of his theories have been proven wrong time and again. He was dead against his baby getting anything other than a ranging radar. He has railed agains the F-15 since the beginning and has been wrong every single time.
Prior to the first Gulf War he kept giving interviews about how the much more nimble MiG-29's and other Russian planes were going to wipe the floor of the big, complex, lumbering allied planes. He says low observability does not work, and that claims no BVR shot has ever happened. He is full of half truthes and full on lies. He also hasn't had access to classified data since the 80's.

As for his baby... It has gained weight, pods and conformal fuel tanks to stay relivent and useful.
His ideal aircraft is basically an upengined F-5 with no radar, a pair of wingtip mounted Sidewinders and that's it. He has no understanding about how modern electronics are many times more reliable than the old stuff in the 60's and 70's. He also has no understanding of how data links are a game changer.

Was it also his idea to not put guns on the F-4? That was a brilliant idea by the engineers. :rolleyes:
 
Yeah but on this one he's got at least something right. The F-35 is a piece of crap compared to same generation aircraft from other parts of the world. The UK, Italy, the Netherlands and anyone else putting one cent into that program should feel ashamed when the Eurofighter costs half per unit. Don't tell me the F35 will be twice as good as a Eurofighter.

You are way off, on everything. The Eurofighter does not cost anywhere near half as much. Hell it is just about as expensive.

This is from 2006 but it sums things up nicely, all costs are in 2006 US Dollars.
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/dae/articles/communiques/FighterCostFinalJuly06.pdf

1. Dassault Aviation RAFALE
Program Unit Cost : $ 135.8 million (Rafale C air force single-seat aircraft)
Unit Procurement Cost : $ 62.1 million

2. Saab-BAE Systems JAS-39 GRIPEN
Program Unit Cost : $ 76.07 million
Unit Procurement Cost: $ 68.90 million ($55.1 million excluding VAT)

3. Boeing F/A-18E SUPER HORNET
Program Unit Cost : $ 95.3 million
Unit Procurement Cost: $ 78.4 million

4. Boeing F-15E STRIKE EAGLE:
Program Unit Cost : not significant
Unit Procurement Cost: $ 108.2 million (atypical)

5. Eurofighter TYPHOON:
Program Unit Cost : $ 143.8 million (Royal Air Force)
Unit Procurement Cost : $ 118.6 million (Royal Air Force)

6. Lockheed F-35 JOINT STRIKE FIGHTER
Program Unit Cost : $ 112.5 million
Unit Procurement Cost : $ 115 million (LRIP aircraft)

7. Lockheed Martin F-22A RAPTOR
Program Unit Cost : $ 361.3 million
Unit Procurement Cost : $ 177.6 million

Sources and methodology are listed in the link.

How about something more recent from September of last year?
http://defense-update.com/20130930_pentagon-awards-f-35-orders-under-lrip6-and-7.html#.U6J9bfldWAg

The Pentagon?s F-35 program office said the cost of each F-35 conventional takeoff A-model jet would drop to $98 million in LRIP 7, excluding the engine, from $103 million in LRIP 6. It marks the first time the price of the jet will have dipped below $100 million. The U.S. government buys the engines directly from Pratt & Whitney, a unit of United Technologies Corp., under a separate contract. Lockheed and the Pentagon announced an agreement in principle for the next 71 jets on July 30.

The Pentagon said the price of the B-model that Lockheed is building for the Marine Corps, would drop to $104 million in LRIP 7, from $109 million in the LRIP 6. It said the cost of the C-model variant, which will be able to land and take off from aircraft carriers, would drop to $116 million a jet from $120 million in LRIP 6.

As for engine costs they seem to be from 15-30 million depending on the variant.

So, yes you are way wrong.

Was it also his idea to not put guns on the F-4? That was a brilliant idea by the engineers. :rolleyes:

I don't think Sprey had anything to do with the F-4, but I could be wrong.
The F-4 was originally supposed to be a Navy fleet interceptor and thus a gun wasn't deemed needed to shoot down Soviet bomber swarms at long range, better use that space and weight for more fuel or another Sparrow. In that capacity the decision makes sense but real world use Vietnam in missions outside its original design showed otherwise.
 
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True, when the Norwegian Air Force collected bids for the new fighter program, the F-35 won that by a country mile. EADS withdrew the Eurofighter because we rejected the A400M as replacement for our fleet of aging C-130E Hercules (Yes, we kept those going until 2008), to get four C-130J delivered between 2008 and 2010, the first A400M entered service late last year. The reason for doing this was that the C-130J was readily available and we needed them ASAP as our C-130Es were literally falling apart, but EADS threw a hissy fit, cried unfair competition and with drew the Eurofighter bid.

That left only the JAS Gripen, which did not measure up to the F-35 in therms of performance and also conforming to NATO-standards, as we would have had to carry those costs alone. Factoring those costs in, the JAS came out about as expensive as the F-35. The norwegian press on the other hand has been strongly anti-JSF since day one, because as the JAS-representatives fed them with lots of false numbers comparing the maneuverability and speed of a fully loaded F-35 with the additional external stores to a stripped bare JAS, they also quoted a price excluding conversion costs. They also succeeded in convincing the Norwegian press and some very loud left wing politicians that the F-35 was useless at anything else than bombing targets abroad.

My opinion is that it is extremely silly to write of an aircraft as crap before it has ever seen service, or even reached mass production.
 
The press has been strongly anti-everything that the Australian Defence Forces have bought for decades now. Every new acquisition is branded a lemon.
 
India makes a great example of how not to run a defense program.
http://www.defensenews.com/article/...-Negotiations-Stall-Over-Delivery-Commitments

he Indian Air Force has told the new government that Dassault Aviation, maker of the Rafale jet, and Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL), which will produce the aircraft in India, must put their delivery guarantees in writing before the MoD signs the contract, the MoD source said.

HAL is unwilling to give any written guarantee on the delivery schedule for the Indian-made Rafales, and instead wants Dassault to guarantee deliveries of the Indian-made aircraft, a condition the French have already rejected, the MoD source said.

No sane company will agree to that kind of B.S.

The delays in finalizing the deal have not only pushed back delivery of the fighter, but also led to cost escalations of more than 30 percent, an Air Force official said.

HA!
 
Aviation and India has got to be one of the worst pairings in the world - I don't wish to bash them, but e.g. the Air India saga has far too many chapters for my taste.
 
I was asked by a buddy of mine who works for Gulfstream to fly as a safety pilot from the jumpseat today of a not-quite-finished Gulfstream G650, which retails for about $65million and is the successor to the jet I'm qualified on, the G550. On our way back from performing maneuvers and landings, we had to wait for some really bad weather to pass Savannah before we could land. So while we were tooling around waiting, the guy who invited me along asked me if I wanted to fly, to which I replied: "Is that a serious question?" Apparently it was, since he let me jump in the left seat for about 20-25 minutes and maneuver the aircraft around to get a feel.

It was like getting your cherry popped by Olivia Wilde or Kate Upton. Holy shit!

Pics:

lXddN18.jpg


Unfinished cabin:
60Vf2QF.jpg


pJTJsas.jpg


ivU5zqy.jpg


BQ4yt6j.jpg


SsuJJEy.jpg


I'm still in shock...
 
India makes a great example of how not to run a defense program country.

Fixed, that's India in a nutshell.

My opinion is that it is extremely silly to write of an aircraft as crap before it has ever seen service, or even reached mass production.
Well, good luck. We'll watch the budget overrun with glee from here :tease:
 
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Unfinished cabin:
60Vf2QF.jpg

Well, that look says it all, great gig! :cool:

Nice to have associates who just happen to have cool airplanes to fly.

(Make sure you Log your stick time and the "safety pilot" time too. )

It was like getting your cherry popped by Olivia Wilde or Kate Upton. Holy shit!


Yeah, I'll bet it was! :lol:
 
Well, good luck. We'll watch the budget overrun with glee from here :tease:
Actually, there are no indications that the version we have signed up for (F-35A) will get more expensive. The cost overruns and delays are mostly attached to the VTOL F-35B, but that's details that the media leaves out or doesn't understand. But yeah, it will be worth every penny to have a proper replacement for our fleet of aging F-16s.
 
Can't wait when we start looking for a replacement for our F-18's in a few years. <_<
 
I wonder how many countries there are whose air forces have seen entire generations of fighter aircraft come and go without firing a single shot in anger.
 
I wonder how many countries there are whose air forces have seen entire generations of fighter aircraft come and go without firing a single shot in anger.
Not that many I think. A lot of nations take part in international operations so in therms of firing air-to-ground munitions in anger I can imagine most generations fighter aircraft have done that. If you look at firing air-to-air munition in anger, then the answer will probably be very different.
 
Post-war Germany should have several, considering the first Luftwaffe combat operation was in 1995. In fact, I only know of Tornados actually firing in anger.
 

Indy said:
They revealed that after detectives carried out 170 interviews and profiled all of the 239 people on board the Boeing 777 when it vanished on 8 March, Captain Zaharie Shah was left as the most likely perpetrator if deliberate human action is to blame.

Satellite data provided by the British firm Inmarsat have shown that the jet took a sharp left turn after leaving Malaysian airspace en route from Kuala Lumpur to Beijing. It then followed a long arc deep into the southern Indian Ocean, where it presumably ran out of fuel and crashed.

Investigators have previously refused to ?clear? the captain?s flight simulator of suspicious activity, and it now appears they found evidence of routes programmed to take a plane far out into the Indian Ocean and practising landing using a short runway on an island.



The data from the simulated flights had been deleted, the Times reported, but computer experts were able to retrieve them.

The police probe has also revealed that the 53-year-old captain was unique among those on board the flight for having no recorded commitments, either socially or for work, to take place after the date of the MH370 journey.

This was not in keeping with Zaharie?s usually outgoing and open nature, police said, and in contrast to the activities of his co-pilot, Fariq Hamid, and the rest of the crew.

Interesting though circumstantial information. :think:


This was broadcast last week:
Horizon: Where is Flight MH370? - BBC TV (Probably IP-locked so will require delocking, sorry.)

The Horizon series are science based documentary programs and usually very good.
I am just about to view this, so I'll let you know if it's any good.

:smile:
 
Hence why I said "possible". I'll catch up with Horizon on iPlayer once I've finished watching the Hunt for Red October for the 73rd time.
 
Hence why I said "possible". I'll catch up with Horizon on iPlayer once I've finished watching the Hunt for Red October for the 73rd time.

Yeah, I know - keep ya pants on. :p

Horizon documentary v. good and worth a watch. Technical details shown pretty well and the Inmarsat guys are part of the explanation of how they worked out the numbers.
:cool:

(Maths & physics expertise not required, but it helps.)
 
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