The Aviation Thread [Contains Lots of Awesome Pictures]

[flyinhawaiian]

Global HDR by Finktel Jr Productions, on Flickr


Piper Test Short Long by Finktel Jr Productions, on Flickr


Pilot's Halo by Finktel Jr Productions, on Flickr

G550

G550 Night Cockpit by Finktel Jr Productions, on Flickr

vs Global 6000

Global 6000 Cockpit by Finktel Jr Productions, on Flickr

 

[McRae]

Luckily it seems our Navy is smarter and is going to get Seahawks to replace our Westland Lynx helicopters.

Two different types of helicopteres, aren't they? The Lynx is fairly compact, agile and very fast, the Seahawk is a big, heavy thing.

 

[jasonof2000]

The Seahawk isn't that big, a ship that can handle a Lynx can handle a SH-60. Besides what other naval helo has as many add on kits available pretty much off the shelf?
A popular one is a stub wing kit that lets it carry Hellfire missiles in an anti-swarm role.

 

[M3lover]

Two different types of helicopteres, aren't they? The Lynx is fairly compact, agile and very fast, the Seahawk is a big, heavy thing.

The thing is our new support ships and Frigates have plenty of room for two Seahawks because they are made to hold the even bigger EH-101's, so why not? It's a more versatile platform that can carry twice the load compared to our old Lynx helicopters and it isn't even that much slower.

 

[SpitfireMK461]

The thing is our new support ships and Frigates have plenty of room for two Seahawks because they are made to hold the even bigger EH-101's, so why not? It's a more versatile platform that can carry twice the load compared to our old Lynx helicopters and it isn't even that much slower.

And I hear that, if you ask nicely, there is a Stealth Package. :lol:

 

[Strelok16]

[video=youtube;Z-ilcodoppc]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-ilcodoppc[/video]

 

[SpitfireMK461]

^ And here we are wasting $400b and multiple decades on the JSF.

 

[Correspondent75]

Speaking of Sukhoi , fancy a carpet bombing indian style?

 

[MWF]

 

[M3lover]

^ And here we are wasting $400b and multiple decades on the JSF.

It would be awesome to see how those two would match up in a red flag style exercise instead of all the arm chair speculation.

 

[Dr_Grip]

The National Geographic has a bullshit story about the JSF being the last manned fighter plane, probably being converted into a drone later in it's life.

This obviously is bullcrap. While drones have their advantages, remote controlled craft will never be able to match manned ones in combat due to the delay of the control connection (see here). And one may pose an argument that -apart from the moral and legal problems*- any conceivable autonomous craft will be less reliable than, more prone to (cyber-)attack than and maybe even outwitted by a traditional fighter with human being onboard.

Thus, I think, anyone who proposes to use drones for defensive purposes and/or to attack mission-critical targets that have adequate defense systems (let alone an enemy air force that might engage the attackers) is talking out of his or her ass.

Thoughts?

*Legal problems as in "how does an autonomous system fit into the chain of command?" or "if an autonomous system commits a war crime, who is at fault/is legally responsible? The person who ordered the deployment? The software engineer who wrote the routine that malfunctioned, for example killed civilians? The quality assurance guy who did not find that bug? The drone itself?". And moral problems as in "is it really a good idea to give machines the authority to decide on the killing of human beings (see also)"?

 

[Correspondent75]

^ And here we are wasting $400b and multiple decades on the JSF.

Spitfire , I went to the internet and found this for you :

 

[devil500]

Spitfire , I went to the internet and found this for you :

^ :lol: I know a guy who's worked on the project and he defends it to death, but let's be honest it's a compromised project.

 

[SpitfireMK461]

Spitfire , I went to the internet and found this for you :

Drone stuff

I don't think we'll see the JSF ever get turned into a meaningful drone unless major advances in AI happen; it's just too complex of a system, and it would be too difficult to pilot remotely.

On a more general scale, I do think drones will be taking a greater part in war from now on, perhaps even replacing the bulk of our air assets. I say that because while each individual drone may be less capable than a manned fighter/bomber, they are vastly cheaper. You can put 25 predator drones in the air for every JSF (and that number is rising). Then consider the pilot costs, which are lower for a drone. Essentially, a country like the US might resort to spamming drones just because it is cheaper and doesn't put pilots at risk.

I wouldn't want to see drones ever replace human pilots, or humans in war at all, for philosophical reasons. What is war without death? It's just an expensive game at that point.

 

[Heathrow]

* snip NG story *

Thoughts?

On a technical issue, during a documentary I saw featuring advanced aircraft design, a comment was made that the highest G-force a human pilot can usually be expected to adequetely endure was about 9 G.

However, aerodynamicists were now theoretically looking at combat fighers with G force designs capabale of up to 15 G.

Dunno how true that was, but I am pretty sure it was a BBC Horizon doc and not some cheap crap on Channel 5.

*Legal problems as in "how does an autonomous system fit into the chain of command?" or "if an autonomous system commits a war crime, who is at fault/is legally responsible? The person who ordered the deployment? The software engineer who wrote the routine that malfunctioned, for example killed civilians? The quality assurance guy who did not find that bug? The drone itself?".

A good question! I would think that the person who orders the deployment would be liable under a war crimes mandate.

And moral problems as in "is it really a good idea to give machines the authority to decide on the killing of human beings

How far away is that from "smart bombs" or cruise missiles which we already have used?

(see also)"?

Life imitating art, surely not?

 

[Dr_Grip]

On a more general scale, I do think drones will be taking a greater part in war from now on, perhaps even replacing the bulk of our air assets. I say that because while each individual drone may be less capable than a manned fighter/bomber, they are vastly cheaper. You can put 25 predator drones in the air for every JSF (and that number is rising). Then consider the pilot costs, which are lower for a drone. Essentially, a country like the US might resort to spamming drones just because it is cheaper and doesn't put pilots at risk.

It would be the same numbers game as a bombing run in WW II: You know a certain amount of your planes/drones is not going to make it, so you'll use superior numbers. I just doubt it'll work out, especially since with a large number of identical drones, you only need to find one flaw/hack one control connection/etc to down them all. And using different systems in order to avoid this, you are ruining the economics of scale.

On a technical issue, during a documentary I saw featuring advanced aircraft design, a comment was made that the highest G-force a human pilot can usually be expected to adequetely endure was about 9 G.

However, aerodynamicists were now theoretically looking at combat fighers with G force designs capabale of up to 15 G.

That's correct and one of the arguments for autonomous fighters. If that alone can compensate the disadvantage of a more complex and thus more failure-prone setup is questionable, though. For a drone to work you need: GPS, sensor systems and a control connection. If one of these three things fails, a drone will either move into fail-safe mode and limp home or simply crash. A human pilot, while normally relying on GPS, sensors and radio as well, can still engage his target if one or more of these systems fail.

How far away is that from "smart bombs" or cruise missiles which we already have used?

The difference is simple and very important: A smart bomb, cruise missile and AFAIK even a Reaper drone can track a pre-selected target, follow it if it moves and even switch to secondary and tertiary targets if the primary target is destroyed or otherwise unreachable.

A hypothetical autonomous weapons system would select which targets to engage on it's own. It would not track an enemy plane/ship/Hilux selected by a human being and destroy it, but look at, for example, all Hiluxes within sensor range and decide which ones are civilian and which are not and then engage the non-civilian ones, all without human involvement.

A good question! I would think that the person who orders the deployment would be liable under a war crimes mandate.

But if he can prove that he ordered the autonomous system that it should only attack legitimate targets and that the system slaughtered an entire village due to a software glitch? Should he be responsible then?

 

[Heathrow]

^

More your specialist area Doc, than mine.

This would need to be tested in a real case, then a legal precident would be set.

But I still think that it's the guy who authorised the thing, with the SW glitches or not.

The responsibility has to stop somewhere, he was the last in the chain.

 

[M3lover]

I don't think we'll see the JSF ever get turned into a meaningful drone unless major advances in AI happen; it's just too complex of a system, and it would be too difficult to pilot remotely.

On a more general scale, I do think drones will be taking a greater part in war from now on, perhaps even replacing the bulk of our air assets. I say that because while each individual drone may be less capable than a manned fighter/bomber, they are vastly cheaper. You can put 25 predator drones in the air for every JSF (and that number is rising). Then consider the pilot costs, which are lower for a drone. Essentially, a country like the US might resort to spamming drones just because it is cheaper and doesn't put pilots at risk.

I wouldn't want to see drones ever replace human pilots, or humans in war at all, for philosophical reasons. What is war without death? It's just an expensive game at that point.

Many are speculating that sometime in the future we will see "swarms" of drones used instead of bigger single systems.

 

[wiltzei]

More intel about this event?

 

[Eye-Q]

It is an Avro Lancaster, similar to the ones which busted some german dams in the Operation Chastise. In 2008 there was a commemoration over the Derwent Dam. Here is a Daily Mail article about it.