The European Refugee Situation

Cellos88GT

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It's not going to happen, it hasn't really happened with Turkish people after all this time, it's not going to happen with the people who are entering Germany now. They'll live in ghettos (even after/if they leave the containers where the refugees are placed), live off minijobs/subsidies and never feel integrated in the society.
Yeah, I don't see how the "refugees" will be any better integrated than the immigrants that have been coming to Europe for the past decade. After all these years of discussion about "the Muslim Question", the EU has still not come up with a good answer.
 

laxmax613

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Yeah, I don't see how the "refugees" will be any better integrated than the immigrants that have been coming to Europe for the past decade. After all these years of discussion about "the Muslim Question", the EU has still not come up with a good answer.
Statistically, refugee in the US are far more likely to own successful small businesses, according to a statistic I saw on the news the other day.

Here is an article that provides that stat, and more, about the relative success of refugees and asylum-seekers in comparison with other kinds of immigrants.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonkblog/wp/2015/09/10/the-big-myth-about-refugees/
 

Cellos88GT

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Statistically, refugee in the US are far more likely to own successful small businesses, according to a statistic I saw on the news the other day.

Here is an article that provides that stat, and more, about the relative success of refugees and asylum-seekers in comparison with other kinds of immigrants.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonkblog/wp/2015/09/10/the-big-myth-about-refugees/
This isn't about whether an immigrant or refugee can be economically successful, I have no doubt they can be, given the supportive environment. My doubts lie in the integration of two vastly different cultures and Europe tbh hasn't been very successful at that.
 

MacGuffin

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The European Refugee Situation

On a German satire tv show they had a nice angle on the fact that some idiots keep saying the refugees are only coming for economical reasons to Germany and that there is a problem especially in former East Germany with welcoming the refugees. The angle went like this:

"25 years ago many thousands of refugees from the east fled to western Germany from a totalitarian regime. Their motivation was also clearly motivated by economical reasons and all of them were after our money (the D-Mark). And it was also Hungary back then that let them get into west Germany... As current events show, their integration into western society often did not go as well as planned..."

The whole thing accompanied with 25-year-old pictures from the events in 1989. I admit I had to laugh out loud :)
 
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AiR

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"I know, let's throw rocks at the police! They'll be sure to let us through then!"

 

MacGuffin

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First time I directly encountered some refugees today. I was stopping at a redlight and they waited on the sidewalk next to me, at the entrance of a collecting place, where citizen donated clothes, toys and other things for them. There were men, women and small children. It was a cold October day with cloudy sky, surely not what they are used to. They made a very insecure, confused and tired impression me.

Imagine you get ripped out of your world and land in a place half a world away you know nothing about...
 

Delll

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Imagine you get ripped out of your world and land in a place half a world away you know nothing about...
Imagine you pay hundreds/thousands of euros for someone to smuggle you illegally from Iraq/Turkey into Greece and then make your way through to Germany to receive loadsamoney and public support and donations for being so brave.
 

MacGuffin

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The European Refugee Situation

That's one man's personal opinion. Any attempt to erect fences or walls or to create camps where refugees can be concentrated, are doomed to fail anyway.

Or do you think that people who came across the Mediterranean, risking their lives and the lives of their loved ones in crappy boats, can be hindered by something puny like a fence?

The only strategy can be to prevent people getting on the move in the first place. Currently the world is learning that the wars in other parts of the world are not as far away as believed and hopefully that changes the way foreign politics are being handled in the future.

Meanwhile, we have a human obligation to help those in need, even if it might be inconvenient for us.
 
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Delll

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That's one man's personal opinion.
Usually when people in such public positions speak out (and as in this case, the organisation they represent will be linked to them), they have reason to believe they are supported by their organisation. Which in this case means cops.
Or do you think that people who came across the Mediterranean, risking their lives and the lives of their loved ones in crappy boats, can be hindered by something puny like a fence?
Seems to have worked for Nazi Hungary. I haven't seen numbers, but the outrage among European lefties indicates that it has.
The only strategy can be to prevent people getting on the move in the first place.
How? The only way, as long as there is wealth inequality, and other than everyone keeping them out of their countries, is by massively scaling down European welfare systems. Or excluding immigrants from said systems, but:
Meanwhile, we have a human obligation to help those in need, even if it might be inconvenient for us.
So that's not going to happen either.
 

MacGuffin

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Seems to have worked for Nazi Hungary. I haven't seen numbers, but the outrage among European lefties indicates that it has.
If people wanted to really get into Hungary, they would. The thing ist that nobody wants to stay in Hungary, they only used it as a transit country, so they rather go around instead of pushing their way through by force.

How? The only way, as long as there is wealth inequality, and other than everyone keeping them out of their countries, is by massively scaling down European welfare systems. Or excluding immigrants from said systems
There will always be a certain amount of people who want to leave their home but truth is that the majority wants to stay where they grew up and can only be driven out by force.

The reason they come now in masses, is because they flee of a very nasty war and/or their own governments who mistreat them. They see no future in their homelands anymore, so they leave. The only way to make them stay put, is preventing wars, stop supporting oppressors and dictarors, give them a perspective in life, etc. It doesn't take much, just the certainty that you might not be killed any given moment.

Let's not forget that this whole crisis was triggered by the international politics of one George W. Bush and his personal revenge on Saddam Hussein. Under Dubbya's presidency, the Americans managed to destabilze the whole region, throw it into chaos and instead of fighting terrorism they imported it there. Neither IS nor Al Quaida existed there before, at least not enough to be worth mentioning at all. Terrorism and radical fundamentalism were proudly introduced to the Arabian peninsula by the US of A.

So my first suggestion to prevent masses of refugees: Stop making politics with your ego and stop crusading people in other parts of the world. And treat other, less wealthy countries fair instead of ripping them off all the time. Maybe the current refugee crisis is an incentive for some politicians to rethink their strategies (although I doubt it).

It would help to recognize that all those people are coming here now because of failed Western politics. and alone from that fact there is an obligation to help them and offer them a future.

So that's not going to happen either.
Yes, because while we take care of the problem (together with Austria and Sweden), all other EU countries dig their foot in the ground, stare to the floor and mutter something like "Surely they don't expect us to help them, right? Our voters probably wouldn't like that and we can't be bothered to explain to them." It's sickening.

At the moment many of the EU member states are really pissing me off for not wanting to help. It's a declaration of bankruptcy on humanity. Winter is coming and there is a clear and present danger of people freezing to death.
 
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DanRoM

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Usually when people in such public positions speak out (and as in this case, the organisation they represent will be linked to them), they have reason to believe they are supported by their organisation. Which in this case means cops.
The man in question, Rainer Wendt, and his organization, the Deutsche Polizeigewerkschaft ("German Police Union") is infamous for demanding tighter laws and more powers for the police, frequently bordering on being unconstitutional, whenever a high-profile crime is discussed in the general public. They are not to be taken seriously on an intellectual level.
In this particular case, even the rival Gewerkschaft der Polizei ("Union of the Police")*, usually nearly as trigger-happy on the demanding more laws and powers thing, calls Wendt's proposal "irresponsibly playing with fire".

So no, not even the cops want a border fence. And given the experiences our country has with such things, I'm quite confident we won't build one because of some refugees.

* The Popul?re Gewerkschaft ("Popular Union") sits over there. Splitter!
 

LeVeL

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Refugee consensus crumbling in Sweden, Europe's most generous host

Even Sweden has its limits.

A self-proclaimed "humanitarian superpower" where welcoming those fleeing war and oppression is ingrained as part of the national identity, the Nordic country has proudly taken in more refugees per capita than any other in Europe.

But now, with military barracks, ski lodges and camping huts already filling up, it is running of roofs to put over the heads of immigrants. The government is warning that tens of thousands of people may end up spending the Nordic winter in tents.

And for the first time, there have been signs in recent weeks that the national consensus behind the open-door policy is crumbling. Far-right protesters have shouted "go home" at asylum seekers. Refugee housing has been hit by arson attacks. And even in the political mainstream there is a growing feeling that its generous policies are unsustainable.

With fewer than 10 million people, Sweden has already received 100,000 refugees so far this year, and the government now predicts 150,000 could arrive by year's end. That is more than double the number it expected when it set aside as much as 4 percent of the 2016 state budget for immigration and integration.

Authorities will soon set up electrically heated tents that could house up to 35,000 people this winter, bringing to the cold dark reaches of northern Europe the sort of refugee camps more familiar in the poorest parts of the world.

"We are living from hand to mouth, and we have for a long time now," Tolle Furegard, national housing coordinator at the Migration Agency, told Reuters.

Early in the Syrian crisis, Sweden stepped out in front of other European countries to declare that all refugees from Syria would automatically be granted permanent residency, letting them work and making it easier for family members to join them.

Polls show most Swedes still welcome refugees, and several charities have received record donations. But a growing minority worry the influx will hurt their cherished welfare state.

Center-left Prime Minister Stefan Lofven, heading a fragile minority government, faces calls from within his own Social Democrat party to tighten immigration - policies that over the decades welcomed refugees from Vietnam war draft dodgers in the 1960s to Gulf War refugees in the 1990s.

One municipality in northern Sweden is keeping the location of new homes for 150 refugees secret after three centers were torched. Another center in western Sweden was forced to evacuate residents after it was set alight on Tuesday.

At Stockholm's train station, around 30 far-right demonstrators protesting what they see as an influx of Muslims to Sweden, gathered near a temporary migrations center, shouting "Go home". The station, where volunteers help asylum seekers, has welcomed refugees for months.

TENT CITIES

"Sweden is preparing for a crisis situation," said Lofven, adding that asylum seekers will have to accept a lower standard of living. "It's about putting roofs over people's heads now."

Lofven's minority government faces a backlash from a center-right and far-right opposition. The main center-right Moderates, for years champions of immigration, now call for an end to granting permanent residency for asylum seekers.

In a country where questioning immigration was socially taboo a few years ago, several of the biggest newspapers are now criticizing the government's policy.

The anti-immigration Sweden Democrats, the third biggest party in parliament, have risen further in polls, catching around a fifth of voters. They will start advertising in Middle Eastern media to deter people from coming to Sweden.

"Nobody should even think about coming here," said Paula Bieler, Sweden Democrats spokeswoman. "We have tented camps here. It's cold, chilly and snowy in Sweden. There is a shortage of resources both for our own population and for those who come here."

Lofven is diverting some foreign aid money back home to help meet the extra costs.

The government argues that investing money in improving integration for immigrants is crucial to staving off economic hardship in the future. But integrating newcomers has proved difficult. Unemployment among foreign-born Swedes is more than 20 percent, four times higher than among natives.

"Integration has not worked as well as we would have liked," said Interior Minister Anders Ygeman. "It's clear that there are risks."

Adding to the cost is an unexpectedly high proportion of unaccompanied children among the refugees - a fifth of the total - requiring costly extra services.

REFUGEES FIRST STOP

The vastness of the enterprise can be seen at the main asylum center in the southern city of Malmo where around two thirds of all asylum seekers to Sweden register.

The former hotel and conference center is clean, with a restaurant and rooms for 600 people. The number of refugees arriving per day ballooned from 55 in July to around 900 in September. Staffing has doubled since the crisis started.

"I don't have to worry about the budget. My job is to make sure we don't close the door on anybody who comes here," said Patricio Mora, the center's manager.

Lines quickly form outside and tempers flare when families jostle to enter.

Schools feel the strain. In Norberg, a community of around 5,000 people about two hours drive from the capital, the 500-pupil school faces an extra 100 refugee students.

"We have used the library, storage rooms and the teachers lounge as classrooms. If even more children arrive in the coming weeks, we have nowhere to place them," said Asa Eriksson, the town mayor.

"If worst comes to worst they will have to be outside."
 

AiR

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That article is wildly inaccurate! Another reception center burned this morning, so there are four centers gone up in flames in about a weeks time. Not three ;)
Nobody injured in any of the fires by the way, altough there were people living in the one going up this morning and the fire alarm wasn't working (the safety standards have been wildly relaxed due to Migration Authority running out of storage.)

The rest is completely accurate. And speaking of Sweden, the biggest paper in the west of Sweden published a looooooong article on a 16-year child that had recently arrived.
As you can see from the pictures, he looks kind of old. And because the internet now had both his name and photograph they in about five minutes dug up his profile on social networking site Hi5.com, which he registered in 2008 (when he was 7, obviously), and which he has filled with pictures of his adventures. He had also managed to misplace his passport when he got here, but not his Iphone 6. Odd.

Of course GP does not ask any critical questions about anything (certainly not if he's a welfare tourist!) because that'd be racist (obviously). The Sweden Democrats do not even need to make an effort to grow in numbers, journalists who have completely forgotten how to do their job do all the propaganda they need, all day every day. Here our 16 year old child that had to flee without his mum and dad (and seem to have stayed in Turkey for two years) run through the how-old.net bot.

Anyway, winter is coming. The Migration Authority is going to have to resort to tents due to the fact that normal storage is running out and/or being burned to the ground, a fact of which they are currently whining about on the evening news as I type this. You see, you can't just put up tents anywhere (unless you're gypsy), you need a building permit, permits which the neighbours may appeal in several instances. Yeah no, forget tents going up this winter.



Of course if the gypsys built tent camps and then rented these out to immigrants... :think:
 
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LeVeL

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We had the same thing here in the US - one local town in particular got quite a few illegals undocumented workers children registering for high school despite looking like they were in their late 30s. You see, you can't call into question the age of an adult a child trying to enroll in a school after entering the country illegally without papers because that would be racial profiling. Or something. Anyways, at least we're no longer the only ones facing a massive influx of people that will be supported largely by the middle class.
 

AiR

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I thought one of the reasons why the US could successfully integrate so many people was your lack of social security net, that if people wanted to eat they had to find work. But I guess they have to attend school, and get some sort of benefits for doing so? Anyway we'll need to reform our system, when 150 000 people turn up on your door step "over night" the system can't keep up. Hence for the future if you haven't paid in you can't expect to get a payout. I wonder how long it'll take our politicians to realize this.

Oh and I forgot to mention that our 16-year old child have actually listed his actual age on his profile. He's 25. The paper GP have replied to the barrage of tweets that "they do not do age verification", which is hilarious because it means they literally do not understand the core principle of journalism, verifying what you write.
 
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LeVeL

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The school thing was the result of Obama's decision to help import all the kids! from basically anywhere south of the border. There were even reports of Mexican authorities letting all sorts of smugglers from further south go right on through to our border. Trouble is, some of these kids were, well, adults.
 

Delll

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People from southern lands tend to look older than they really are. This Lazio footballer was only 17 at the time (though his age is still believed to be correct by all sorts of footballing organisations). In Finland this 17-year-old was a hot topic for quite a few days. It even prompted some famous refugees and refugee supporters (like UFC fighter Makwan Amirkhani) to come out and say they should absolutely not get asylum because he lied about his age. Of course people dug up his Facebook or VK or whatever with pictures of his travels and it turns out he's almost 20 (though still looks a bit older). Oh and the man on the left? Finnish prime minister, who seemed to swallow it hook, line and sinker...

Shame the only current party that could realistically deal with this mess is in the coalition government stomping on all the values they promoted before the election. Not that anything could be done until 2019 anyway when the next election will be held. And guess who leads the statistics of Finnish asylum seekers so far this year? It's not Syria.
- Iraq 16 385
- Somalia 1 879
- Afghanistan 1 483
- Albania 705
- Syria 505

The funny thing about this whole ordeal is that while we stick to every other EU regulation to our detriment, we've completely forgotten one of the biggies, the Dublin Regulation... If it was used properly, there would be ~0 legit asylum seekers in Finland, Sweden, Germany and pretty much every other non-southern EU country. Because they should apply for asylum in the first 'safe' country they arrive in (Greece, Italy, whatever) and if they failed to do so, they should be returned to that country. Instead Finland is getting ~200 (peaked around 500) per day at the Swedish border, which should ring some bells...
 
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