The European Refugee Situation

MacGuffin

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Yeah, I'm also against certain things. Like rain for instance. Also I hate when the air is really humid. And please spare me temperatures above 25? C... surely there must be a way to prevent that kind of annoyances.

Sorry for the sarcasm but you clearly seem to fail to recognize that the theoretical construct of EU rules has been defeated by reality.

Of course there have solutions to be found to deal with the situation and it's most important to limit the number of refugees coming to Europe. But that's only possible if you eliminate the factors that made them come here. And those factors cannot be eliminated quickly, it needs time. Time of which already too much was wasted due to inactivity and indifference in European politics.

Objective fact is now that they are coming. In masses. And that we have to deal with them in one way or another. They won't go away simply because we wish them to. Of course there are individuals among them who try to cheat their way into our societies. Black sheep are everywhere. I know many Germans for instance who take money from the state but go moonlighting to raise their income a bit. For every misdeed foreigners might do, locals have done the same thing ten times over...

A close friend of mine works as a police woman and she confirms that certain young refugees make a lot of problems, also because they have lost all respect for authorities. But she also says that they are a minority and that the vast majority of them are peaceful and frankly too exhausted and demoralized to make any trouble. And just because there might be a few foul apples and oranges, you cannot throw away the whole container with fruit...

The main challenge now is to accelerate the bureaucracy in order to make the operations and the regstistration faster. What we need, is a "refugee infrastructure" and it is being made on the fly right now. Politicians are currently trying to get ahead of the wave of refugees in order to act again instead of only reacting. Things will eventually sort themselves out and the necessary structures will be put in place.

Meanwhile -- if you can't be bothered to get actively involved in helping with the situation like many other voluntaries -- lean back and relax. No need to break out into agonal respiration about it. This is not the downfall of the occident. On the contrary: If we handle it clever enough, we can even take profit from it.
 
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LeVeL

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But that's only possible if you eliminate the factors that made them come here. And those factors cannot be eliminated quickly, it needs time.
Soooo your solution to the refugee crisis is to turn Germany into Syria and France into Iraq? Because you sure as hell won't see a big improvement in those countries.
 

MacGuffin

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There's your islamophobia again :rolleyes:

What is your alternative? Put refugees into camps to concentrate them there? Because that would be the only alternative: Put them into a gulag-like prison. Except of course you prefer the Australian method and send them out to sea again in their crappy boats to let them drown in the ocean.

So what alternative to granting them sanctuary do you prefer? Genocide or Guantanamo?

And before you start talking even more rubbish, you should maybe read up on the Convention relating to the status of Refugees, which has been signed by all EU countries. Sadly some of them seem to have forgotten that...
 
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Delll

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What is your alternative? Put refugees into camps to concentrate them there? Because that would be the only alternative: Put them into a gulag-like prison. Except of course you prefer the Australian method and send them out to see again in their crappy boats to let them drown in the ocean.
How about moving within the country (you know, those areas which are considered safe enough for many Nordic countries' immigration authorities to return asylum seekers to if they are retarded enough to admit coming from there, because for some reason they cannot be returned anywhere but their home town)? Or moving somewhere where their language skills are appreciated and their master's degrees and doctorates are actually recognised? Or register in the nearest 'safe' country like they should (if you really were escaping certain death, it shouldn't matter whether you apply in Turkey or Germany)? Or even register in the first EU country they arrive in like they should (rest of EU might even help by sharing the burden a bit) (again, if you're fleeing war, Greece vs Sweden shouldn't matter)? And you well know there are millions of people in these 'gulags' already. Why should we prioritise those who break laws and agreed protocols and have the resources for an expensive journey and support human trafficking over those who can't, and must stay at the 'gulags'? Sure, if Germany can take all the needy people in the world, feel free to do so. Please leave Schengen and Eurozone, though.
 

Interrobang

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Also even if the whole of Irak, Syria and Afghanistan were on their way (which they aren?t), Europe is a continent with more than half a billion people. We can take some 10s of Million Refugees in.

Germany alone shouldn?t have a problem feeding and housing a million or two refugees for a couple of years. And if the other Eu-states would start pulling their weight as well ...

The funny thing about this whole ordeal is that while we stick to every other EU regulation to our detriment, we've completely forgotten one of the biggies, the Dublin Regulation... If it was used properly, there would be ~0 legit asylum seekers in Finland, Sweden, Germany and pretty much every other non-southern EU country.[...]
The really funny thing is, that people who bring this up usually ignore that after the registration the refugees are supposed to be distributed equally among the EU states ... some people start to think that if the refugees are all suddenly processed in Hungary that there will be no more refugees in germany, finland or wherever - but the truth is that the refugees would still be coming after said registration.

Also Hungary, greece and the other "outer" states you?re talking about -cannot handle these amounts of people. They simply cannot do it. They cannot process them, they cannot house them until they are distributed among the EU-states, they cannot feed them. So we shouldn't pretend that this is an option right now. Dublin was a nice idea, but it?s failed. The EU failed to implement structures in the "outer states" that can handle these amounts of people and they failed to even agree now a numeric method of distribution that makes sure the load is distributed equally.
So yeah - Dublin doesn?t aply anymore. It?s failed and you need to wake up and see that rather than to cling to this failed idea. Germany?s government (yeah, roll anthem) on the other hand has long realized that and decided not to give a damn about Dublin and to step up and do what it can to help these people, taking in Numbers of refugees that should make the rest of the EU ashamed. And what does the German head of government tell the germans when they are unsure as how to react to this? The same she tells the other heads of states ...
"Faced with a great challenge, it cannot be that Europe says: 'We can't handle this'," Mrs Merkel told reporters.

"That's why I say again and again: We can do this," she added.
And she is fucking right. We can. But some of us just don?t want to help people who come to our borders in a time of need. But they are not even honest enough to say that directly and hide behind bureaucratic bullshit like the country of first registration in a system that has failed and is broken.
 
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MacGuffin

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As I understand it, chancellor Merkel has struck a deal with Turkish president Erdogan recently. We'll see what comes out of it.

And to make one thing clear: Germany never said something like "Hey, refugees, come here, you're welcome". All we did was following the code of how to deal with refugees in the spirit of the Convention relating to the status of Refugees.

What makes me really angry is the reaction of neighbouring EU countries: "Oh, you're going to allow them in? Phew, thank God WE don't have to deal with them then. Here, have some more. And by the way: Don't be so fucking humane, people might think they're welcome here."
 

LeVeL

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There's your islamophobia again :rolleyes:
You're the one bringing up religion for some reason.


What is your alternative? Put refugees into camps to concentrate them there? Because that would be the only alternative: Put them into a gulag-like prison. Except of course you prefer the Australian method and send them out to sea again in their crappy boats to let them drown in the ocean.

So what alternative to granting them sanctuary do you prefer? Genocide or Guantanamo?

And before you start talking even more rubbish, you should maybe read up on the Convention relating to the status of Refugees, which has been signed by all EU countries. Sadly some of them seem to have forgotten that...
Honestly, I'm not sure what the alternative would be. I just don't believe for a second that this massive migration can be sustained by European countries for very long, never mind all the terror cells and economic migrants that have been smuggled in among the true war refugees.
 

Delll

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Also even if the whole of Irak, Syria and Afghanistan were on their way (which they aren?t), Europe is a continent with more than half a billion people. We can take some 10s of Million Refugees in.

Germany alone shouldn?t have a problem feeding and housing a million or two refugees for a couple of years. And if the other Eu-states would start pulling their weight as well ...
Germany makes up 16% of the EU's population and has one of the stronger economies (and among the strong economies, seemingly one of the brightest futures). If you can only do 2 million, the rest of EU be expected to do no more than 8. Other EU states are pulling their weight (mostly smaller ones)... But why should other countries willingly sacrifice their ailing economies in the face of this flood? What do you mean by "for a couple of years"? They're here for life. They will bring their families over, they will make children. Surprisingly, many of the children of the 'problematic' nationalities' refugees will be just as likely to properly integrate as them...
The really funny thing is, that people who bring this up usually ignore that after the registration the refugees are supposed to be distributed equally among the EU states ... some people start to think that if the refugees are all suddenly processed in Hungary that there will be no more refugees in germany, finland or wherever - but the truth is that the refugees would still be coming after said registration.

Also Hungary, greece and the other "outer" states you?re talking about -cannot handle these amounts of people. They simply cannot do it. They cannot process them, they cannot house them until they are distributed among the EU-states, they cannot feed them. So we shouldn't pretend that this is an option right now. Dublin was a nice idea, but it?s failed. The EU failed to implement structures in the "outer states" that can handle these amounts of people and they failed to even agree now a numeric method of distribution that makes sure the load is distributed equally.
So yeah - Dublin doesn?t aply anymore. It?s failed and you need to wake up and see that rather than to cling to this failed idea. Germany?s government (yeah, roll anthem) on the other hand has long realized that and decided not to give a damn about Dublin and to step up and do what it can to help these people, taking in Numbers of refugees that should make the rest of the EU ashamed. And what does the German head of government tell the germans when they are unsure as how to react to this? The same she tells the other heads of states ...
Yeah, Germany taking more people per capita than other western EU countries is bullshit. All the other countries have also flown in people straight from MacGuffin's gulags. There should be very little need to seek asylum in an EU country because it's usually not the first safe country you can stop in. That way there should be very few asylum applications in the EU anyway, and very little need to distribute them.
What makes me really angry is the reaction of neighbouring EU countries: "Oh, you're going to allow them in? Phew, thank God WE don't have to deal with them then. Here, have some more. And by the way: Don't be so fucking humane, people might think they're welcome here."
Weren't refugees supposed to be a part of your plan for the future, future Volkswagen plant employees etc? Why should Europe throw away all the peace and prosperity it's worked to achieve to have our cities be turned to Baghdad?

And why should we prioritise those who arrive illegally, supporting illegal human trafficking networks, over those who stay in Lebanese gulags?

Also, Sweden, of all countries, is rumoured to be instating border controls and temporary asylums.
 
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MacGuffin

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You know, maybe I could even take you serious and consider you someone I could seriously discuss with -- if it wasn't so obvious that the main motivation behind your argumentation is your xenophobia...
 

Interrobang

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You're the one bringing up religion for some reason.[...]
... so in this post you were not hinting at Iraq and Syria being muslim countries?

Soooo your solution to the refugee crisis is to turn Germany into Syria and France into Iraq? [...]
I get the impression that you quite like playing the "dangers of islamisation-card", but when you get called out on it, you act as you didn?t say that - without actually saying what you actually meant. And please correct me if I?m wrong and explain what you actually mean by that. Which aspect of the people coming here will turn Germany into Syria or France into Iraq? Is it the color of their skin? Their religion? Or is it something my stupid mind cannot come up with?
I?m always eager to learn, what I am not eager to do is discussing with people who don?t say what they mean and act like an honest discussion about a difficult problem is some sort of rhetoric trolling-game .

- - - Updated - - -

[...] What do you mean by "for a couple of years"? They're here for life.
No, not necessarily. Germany and a lot of european states are and have been sending people who?s status as refugees runs out (because their country is safe again, for example) back to their home countries. If your country goes "sure, you can all stay here for ever", that?s your countries problem.
Germany has send hundreds of thousands refugees home in the last years that arrived in the 90ies from war-torn former yugoslavia. Surely this is something that is debatable - and I personally think that isn?t always the best option, but germany helped these people when they were in need - and that?s what is most important. And it will be the same now. These people will receive help here and when their countries are safe again, they will be asked to leave again.
And maybe like with former yugoslavia (germany send the second biggest number of troops to secure the kosovo), we can do something to help make their countries safe again so they can go back to the countries they didn?t want to leave in the first place ... what a crazy thought, right?

Yeah, Germany taking more people per capita than other western EU countries is bullshit.[...]
These numbers say nothing about 2015, very little about 2014. Yes, Germany has done less than it could have in the previous years, nobody is refuting or denying that. But that?s not the point. Given this years numbers, per capita (!) with germany's numbers states like GB or France would have to take on 600000 refugees. - what are they taking? The two together (!) have agreed to take in less than 100000. With what started in 2014 and has peeked in 2015, the situation has changed drastically. Yes, countries like germany and france were quite happy to have other countries deal with refugees in the past. But germany is stepping up now when it is really needed.

Weren't refugees supposed to be a part of your plan for the future, future Volkswagen plant employees etc?
Nope, that?s just xenophobic bullshit. Refugees are not allowed to work in germany (actually it is a bit more complicated, but I shall leave it at that).
 

LeVeL

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... so in this post you were not hinting at Iraq and Syria being muslim countries?
When have you known me to hint at anything? I think I'm pretty vocal and open about my opinions.


Which aspect of the people coming here will turn Germany into Syria or France into Iraq? Is it the color of their skin? Their religion?
Take a look at what MacGuffin said:
But that's only possible if you eliminate the factors that made them come here. And those factors cannot be eliminated quickly, it needs time.
And my response to him:
Soooo your solution to the refugee crisis is to turn Germany into Syria and France into Iraq? Because you sure as hell won't see a big improvement in those countries.
All I'm saying is that the only way to, as MacGuffin suggested, "eliminate the factors that made them come here" is to equalize the countries they are leaving and the countries they are going to (i.e. Iraq/Syria vs Germany/etc). What do I mean by "equalize"? I suppose religion (and even culture) could be part of that but I was referring to the political structure (which country is more democratic, Syria or Sweden?) and economics (Iraq's GDP per capita vs Italy's). To "equalize" the two sides of the migration, you must either bring Europe's economy to Middle Eastern levels or vice versa, and, quite frankly, I don't see Syria's GDP going up tenfold any time soon.


So yeah... I'm not an Islamaphobe, xenophobe, or whatever other label a few people around here like to assign to me. If these refugees were fleeing Dubai, I'd be signing a much different tune, since clearly economic disparity would not be anywhere near what I talked about above.
 

Delll

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No, not necessarily. Germany and a lot of european states are and have been sending people who?s status as refugees runs out (because their country is safe again, for example) back to their home countries. If your country goes "sure, you can all stay here for ever", that?s your countries problem.
Germany has send hundreds of thousands refugees home in the last years that arrived in the 90ies from war-torn former yugoslavia. Surely this is something that is debatable - and I personally think that isn?t always the best option, but germany helped these people when they were in need - and that?s what is most important. And it will be the same now. These people will receive help here and when their countries are safe again, they will be asked to leave again.
And maybe like with former yugoslavia (germany send the second biggest number of troops to secure the kosovo), we can do something to help make their countries safe again so they can go back to the countries they didn?t want to leave in the first place ... what a crazy thought, right?
So Germany is still literally Nazi Germany (if the returns are involuntary, as they would be in the Iraqi/Syrian/Somali cases for obvious monetary reasons)? Geneva convention on refugees:
The principle of nonrefoulement is so fundamental that no reservations or derogations may be made to it. It provides that no one shall expel or return (?refouler?) a refugee against his or her will, in any manner whatsoever, to a territory where he or she fears threats to life or freedom.
All you have to say is you will be killed in your home country and you can stay forever. All the powerful western countries are attempting to solve the Syrian crisis, with mixed results (and contradictory actions). These are not wars between nations, they are civil wars. You can't really permanently fix a civil war without leaving everyone feeling bad. Any measure that doesn't result in the complete destruction of one side or division of a country will leave the area in an unstable situation that could blow up again after any election or football match or whatever.
These numbers say nothing about 2015, very little about 2014. Yes, Germany has done less than it could have in the previous years, nobody is refuting or denying that. But that?s not the point. Given this years numbers, per capita (!) with germany's numbers states like GB or France would have to take on 600000 refugees. - what are they taking? The two together (!) have agreed to take in less than 100000. With what started in 2014 and has peeked in 2015, the situation has changed drastically. Yes, countries like germany and france were quite happy to have other countries deal with refugees in the past. But germany is stepping up now when it is really needed.
I took your "Germany?s government (yeah, roll anthem) on the other hand has long realized that and decided not to give a damn about Dublin and to step up and do what it can to help these people, taking in Numbers of refugees that should make the rest of the EU ashamed." to mean that you had done it in the years before. Still, Germany is doing nothing compared to the likes of Lebanon and Jordan. If Germany (or UK, or France) were to help the gulags in these countries achieve more humane conditions, you could help many more people than you currently provide a low German standard of living to. Also, if all the asylum seekers were legit, they might as well go to France or the UK (or would actually seek the nearest camp and apply for refugee status there). Instead they see their chances of acceptance being higher in Germany, so they go there. Their politicians have been more sensible, and you now get to pay for that. Unfortunately Finland is in the same boat.
Nope, that?s just xenophobic bullshit. Refugees are not allowed to work in germany (actually it is a bit more complicated, but I shall leave it at that).
Aren't allowed to work for a couple of months until they get a work permit... How the hell do you think you can even begin to try and integrate people into society if they are never allowed to work?

I'd still like to know how you, MacGuffin or anyone can justify Europe prioritising illegally travelling, non-protocol-abiding, probably lying asylum seekers who can afford the expensive trip over those who have stayed for years (as they should) in the Lebanese gulag?
 

Interrobang

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So Germany is still literally Nazi Germany (if the returns are involuntary, as they would be in the Iraqi/Syrian/Somali cases for obvious monetary reasons)[...]
Yeah, giving people shelter, protecting them and then asking them to go home once the situation in their home country is resolved - that is totally nazi-germany. :rolleyes:


All you have to say is you will be killed in your home country and you can stay forever.[...]
wrong. xenophobic bullshit.

[...]How the hell do you think you can even begin to try and integrate people into society if they are never allowed to work?
They are refugees not immigrants. They are taken care of, get everything they need to live. If anyone wants to immigrate and work, integrate etc - there is a whole different way of of doing that and it doesn?t start with applying for asylum ... the need or the right for asylum is something that runs out once the reason for it is gone.

[...] All the powerful western countries are attempting to solve the Syrian crisis, with mixed results (and contradictory actions).
I disagree. Germany has done nothing as well as many other European states. And for example france has only recently started doing some ...
 

AiR

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In a surprising move both Sweden and Germany are trying to get a grip on uncontrolled immigration. I say surprising because I didn't expect either Swedish or German politicians to face reality this soon but I suppose even they are noticing the increasing hole in our collective wallets.

Swedish public radio decided to go out and ask some migrants what they thought about the decisions to grant adults temporary asylums and repatriating the ones who have no reason to be here (for any Americans, yes, that's the very basic level we're talking about), and unsurprisingly they were not big fans. Their sense of entitlement went through the radio quite clearly.

Also more fires.
 
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MacGuffin

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Well, there is a nagging feeling here that normally it shouldn't be any trouble to handle and intigrate all the refugees. But because of inner party disputes and politicians always wanting to secure their next election and enlarge the number of people who vote for them, a lot is drawn out unnecessarily long and complicated.

At the moment the situation is driving politicians along -- they aren't master of the process anymore and more and more things are gliding out of control. In the end that could be a good thing because it needs extreme situations to make conservative politicians come to decisions. And the CDU is not exactly known for being reformist, on he contrary: If it was up to some parts of the German CDU/CSU parties, we'd be back at the social values of the 1950's.

Truth is that the only times real progress and reforms were started in Germany, a social-democratic government was at the helm, while during the times of a CDU/CSU government stagnation paralyzed the country. Unfortunately the social democrats won't be able to form a government in the near future. So if this crisis is able to put our sluggish conservatives into action, I welcome it.
 

AiR

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We have a bunch of people on a bus that won't get off (again). Apparently it's too cold, and the woods are filled with dangerous animals. At least that's what they say. It's not even below 0!

Here's Accuweathers prognosis for this winter.

They've aint seen nothing yet.

Update: They now cite "fear of the dark" as one reason they won't leave the bus. It's too dark. IT'S GOING TO GET WORSE! :lol:
Welfare tourists.
 
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AiR

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Another day, another bus load of migrants who won't get off the bus. No not the same as yesterday, a new case. This time it's "too lonely".
 

Delll

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Are they at least happy with your food? Or do they have to eat food for dogs and women (as well as school and kindergarten kids, people in care homes and hospitals, military, ...)?
 

MacGuffin

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The European Refugee Situation

There are stupid people everywhere, even among refugees.

But it would be even more stupid to generalize that.

Currently there is a lot of bullshit being told about refugees misbehaving. Almost nothing of it is true, almost all of it is xenophobic propaganda.

We had the same kind of bullshit news and urban legends here in 1990, when masses of East Germans interrupted the lives of West Germans who had gotten used to their quiet and uneventful lives near the inner German border.

Books have been written about all the bullshit and the urban legends that were told about East Germans back then and the same thing is happening again now with refugees -- only since we have the internet now, it's spreading faster and more efficiently.
 
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