The European Refugee Situation

AiR said:
We have a bunch of people on a bus that won't get off (again). Apparently it's too cold, and the woods are filled with dangerous animals. At least that's what they say. It's not even below 0!
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I had an interesting conversation with a french social-worker some weeks ago about a similar topic. I asked him why there were so many homeless people living in the street in Paris and if there wasn?t some french social-program that would get these people away from the street and into some form of housing. I was asking because in Germany the Problem does not seem to be this big in the big cities as it is in Paris and was wondering why socialist France was doing so badly in that aspect. The answer I found quite astonishing; as in germany there are programs that would help these people get into housing and stuff - but concerning Paris it comes with a dealbreaker for the homeless. As there are only very few places for these programs in Paris, most of them would have to relocate to get into this sort of program. They really don?t want that - and since they cannot force them to leave, they stay where they are.
Given the choice a lot of people would rather freeze and starve on the streets in Paris than have an apartment and a full stomach somewhere in the countryside. And it?s the same phenomenon with the refugees, I recon. But yeah - I cannot get my head around this either. If I were homeless or a refugee, I?d be happy with a roof over my head and food in my belly.
 
That is a fairly wild info graphic. I knew there were masses of people moving from the warring areas of the Middle East, but did not expect that many from Africa, or even Russia.
 
I wonder what would happen if our politicians finally had a lightbulb moment and decided that yes, after all we do need some sort of sensible immigration policy. If people could do it legally, they might feel less tempted to pay absurd sums of money to people smugglers and risk their lives trying to get here.

I can dream, can't I? :|
 
Hell, undercut the people smugglers and use ferries to bring them over at say 75% and at least take some cost out of it.
 
GRtak said:
take some cost out of it.
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Same thing goes for all the "ZOMG secure the borders!1!!eleven!" crap - it can't be done unless we reestablish an Iron Curtain and make it much bigger and worse "more efficient" than the previous one ever was. Sitting here in Germany, I don't need to look further than 25 years into the past to realise what secure border OCD does to a national economy. So instead of wasting a load of money and resources on fences and forces at the borders, we could invest it into better helping refugees and immigrants.
 
calvinhobbes said:
I wonder what would happen if our politicians finally had a lightbulb moment and decided that yes, after all we do need some sort of sensible immigration policy. If people could do it legally, they might feel less tempted to pay absurd sums of money to people smugglers and risk their lives trying to get here.

I can dream, can't I? :|
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The more people die in the Mediterranean trying to reach Europe the better it is for Europe's future.
GRtak said:
Hell, undercut the people smugglers and use ferries to bring them over at say 75% and at least take some cost out of it.
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Then what? We have tens of millions of people who don't speak the local language, don't have an education that is officially recognised in Europe (that doesn't really matter in low-skilled jobs, but news flash: Europe is already full of low-skilled workers who can't find a job and those jobs are getting ever rarer with industry shutting down and going robotic. Unemployment of engineers and the like is on the rise in some places as well). So they rely on benefits and get bored...

Why isn't the US using its huge Navy to ship them over? You could make loadsamoney. Your politicians love money.
 
calvinhobbes said:
Same thing goes for all the "ZOMG secure the borders!1!!eleven!" crap - it can't be done unless we reestablish an Iron Curtain and make it much bigger and worse "more efficient" than the previous one ever was. Sitting here in Germany, I don't need to look further than 25 years into the past to realise what secure border OCD does to a national economy. So instead of wasting a load of money and resources on fences and forces at the borders, we could invest it into better helping refugees and immigrants.
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That money could be used to build a school and short term apartments and get things rolling to get them jobs so they are at least partially self supporting.


Delll said:
The more people die in the Mediterranean trying to reach Europe the better it is for Europe's future.
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Insert facepalm pick here.


Then what? We have tens of millions of people who don't speak the local language, don't have an education that is officially recognised in Europe (that doesn't really matter in low-skilled jobs, but news flash: Europe is already full of low-skilled workers who can't find a job and those jobs are getting ever rarer with industry shutting down and going robotic. Unemployment of engineers and the like is on the rise in some places as well). So they rely on benefits and get bored...
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I never said I have all the answers, but these people are coming, and there is nothing you can do to stop it. So you have choice A, continue as things are now and you get refuges that are treated like shit and quickly resent the situation they are in, or B, help them come over in a fashion that gets some training and testing that might recognize the education they already have, and gets them to some sort of a job that will help them help themselves.


Why isn't the US using its huge Navy to ship them over? You could make loadsamoney. Your politicians love money.
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I never said this was going to be profitable, just that you can cut out the people smugglers and reduce the costs of handling the problem.
 
GRtak said:
I never said I have all the answers, but these people are coming, and there is nothing you can do to stop it. So you have choice A, continue as things are now and you get refuges that are treated like shit and quickly resent the situation they are in, or B, help them come over in a fashion that gets some training and testing that might recognize the education they already have, and gets them to some sort of a job that will help them help themselves.
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Australia, Hungary, Russia and other countries seem to be doing a great job of keeping them out. There's nothing I can do, but there sure is a hell of a lot the government can and should do (closing borders, returning all non-legit asylum seekers without any sort of monetary assistance). As I've pointed out before (maybe in random thoughts), no matter what we do, some people just don't seem to fit in.
GRtak said:
I never said this was going to be profitable, just that you can cut out the people smugglers and reduce the costs of handling the problem.
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Now you're only left with the problem of a far larger number of unemployed, unemployable people. Reduce the costs? Even if we charged 10 000?/$ for the trip, how long do you think that would last? Refugees get 316,07? in cash per month if they don't get free meals. Conscript housing, food, etc, costs are about 40?/day. These people are put up in hotels and spas and require interpreter assistance for everything, lessons on how to live in Finland, etc. Housing alone will bring their costs up to the conscript level. 316+30*40=1516?/month. The 10 000? is only going to last 6 months. What a great business.
 
GRtak said:
Insert facepalm pick here.
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His sort of ignorance speaks for itself. Loudly.

GRtak said:
I never said I have all the answers, but these people are coming, and there is nothing you can do to stop it. So you have choice A, continue as things are now and you get refuges that are treated like shit and quickly resent the situation they are in, or B, help them come over in a fashion that gets some training and testing that might recognize the education they already have, and gets them to some sort of a job that will help them help themselves.
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But you, of all people, as an American, should know that immigrants cannot possibly contribute anything good to their new country! Ever! :rolleyes: ;)
 
When it comes to immigration, we shouldn't approach it as a binary problem - we either shut down the borders completely or we open up the floodgates. The sensible, reasonable answer lies somewhere in-between - allow in however many people the system can support (in terms of integration, assimilation, employment, benefits, etc) but not more, as that would start to weigh the system down. So the question is, how many refugees can various European countries afford to take in? And this is where I stand by my previous comment regarding the US - we are deep in debt and facing migrants of our own so I don't think we can really take in any Middle Eastern refugees at this point.
 
calvinhobbes said:
His sort of ignorance speaks for itself. Loudly.


But you, of all people, as an American, should know that immigrants cannot possibly contribute anything good to their new country! Ever! :rolleyes: ;)
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The European immigrants here have been nothing but a problem, just ask the native peoples. ;)
 
Contributing is hindered by our welfare states. People do not need to contribute. They will be able to leech of the systems anyway. Ergo the problem, our systems are designed to protect people when they are between jobs. Not to indefinitely support non-natives who have not paid anything into the system.

In other news, the Czech Republic is now overtaking Hungary as the European state that is the "best" at sending the message that refugees are not welcome. How you ask? They basically imprison asylum seekers behind barbed wire and confiscate their money and belongings, as payment for food and lodgings. While even I may think this is pretty mean, the message have gone through loud and clear. Refugees void the Czech Republic like the plague.

European states are now racing to be the best at telling refugees they are no welcome. Heck, even our PM now speak in terms of the country is full. And today we yet again have another bus load of refugees refusing to get off the bus. They had the nerve to demand that the government pay their train ticket back. This time though the immigration authority have wised up, saying: "This is what's offered. If you wan't to go looking elsewhere, you'll have to pay you own fare." And lo and behold, a few of them did! They went back to Germany. Too much forest here. Full of dangerous animals :lol:

I cannot stand this sense of entitlement. Are bombs dropping on your head? No? Good. Now shut the fuck up and show some gratitude that someone took you in.
 
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Well, thing is that people are being told fantasy stories in their home countries, probably told by smugglers in order to lure them out of the country.

For instance there is a rumor that every refugee gets their own house in Germany and our embassies have their hands full with trying to tell the truth but you know how it is: People believe what they WANT to believe and if some jerk promises them paradise on Earth when they come to Europe, it's no wonder they become irritated when they arrive in a camp in the middle of nowhere.
 
AiR said:
Contributing is hindered by our welfare states. People do not need to contribute. They will be able to leech of the systems anyway.[...]
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Laaaaadies and Geeeeentlemen! For todays Title match in the heavy-handed argument class, in the right corners:

Refugees live of our tax-money and don?t want to work! vs Refugees are taking away our jobs!

The Fight is 1000 rounds and the winner will be decided by a jury of youtube commenters!

:bunny:

Leeching of the social systems is a problem that is not exclusive to refugees. If your state has it?s welfare systems set up in a way that they can be abused by the lazy - that?s a general problem you may want to tackle generally. Germany has tried to go that route in the 90ies and while said leeching has gotten a lot less, the gap between the rich and the poor has also increased dramatically. So for Germany this turned out to be a double edged sword in a way and today people are talking a lot about going back on these reforms a bit.
 
Normally I would say that if immigrants/refugees are takin' our jerbs! then it's because the locals aren't taking those jobs. However, once you throw wage controls into the equation, the picture changes, because now employers have an incentive to hire immigrants/refugees over the locals and pay them less. The prospect of mandating minimum wage for people that might be in the country illegally is laughable and you can't get rid of minimum wage laws so there's the outrage over "them" taking "our" jobs. At the same time, immigrants/refugees that don't pay taxes (regardless of whether or not they work) are, well, "leeching" (which has a negative connotation but I don't want to come across as bashing everyone that receives assistance). I think that this too is a double-edge sword where some refugees are taking jobs, while others are not working and are instead "living on your tax money". Of course the irony is that, as you said, Interrobang, the "locals" are doing the same thing - some have jobs and others are leeching :p
 
MacGuffin said:
Well, thing is that people are being told fantasy stories in their home countries, probably told by smugglers in order to lure them out of the country.

For instance there is a rumor that every refugee gets their own house in Germany and our embassies have their hands full with trying to tell the truth but you know how it is: People believe what they WANT to believe and if some jerk promises them paradise on Earth when they come to Europe, it's no wonder they become irritated when they arrive in a camp in the middle of nowhere.
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True, the issue with smugglers promising "gold and riches" is likely very real, and it's allowed to get irritated, but nobody can expect that we will offer some sort of first class travel service and let people go wherever they want on our account.

Interrobang said:
Leeching of the social systems is a problem that is not exclusive to refugees. If your state has it?s welfare systems set up in a way that they can be abused by the lazy - that?s a general problem you may want to tackle generally. Germany has tried to go that route in the 90ies and while said leeching has gotten a lot less, the gap between the rich and the poor has also increased dramatically. So for Germany this turned out to be a double edged sword in a way and today people are talking a lot about going back on these reforms a bit.
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Absolutely it's not exclusive to migrants, not saying that. And I want the migrants to integrate and find jobs as quick as possible, but I'm also a realist. Getting a job is hard, the threshold between a migrant and a job is huge, and it's spelled language and skills. A lot of Syrians are well educated and have skills we need, and many are no doubt working their ass off to learn the language, but we also need to face the fact that many migrants haven't gone to school at all. Turning them into contributors to the system will take years and some will never do it.

My key argument is this, the system is designed to handle some bums who never pay in. Even if they themselves have never contributed, their parents most likely have. It's not set up to handle an unregulated influx from the outside. Leeching may be a "harsh" word (I wrote the post yesterday in affect) but suitable given the situation.

I like the system, hence why I feel it's so important we protect it.
 
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