The European Refugee Situation

[M3lover]

Or in other words: They'd sell out the basic principles of Western civilization in order to keep the power.

If a people is not intelligent enough to notice that has a foul smell, it doesn't deserve democracy, sorry...

It's easy to just want to exclude and silence them like they do in Sweden, but in the long term I think that will just breed more support for the right wing and polarize society further. Let them have their say and debate it in an open and rational way instead of sweeping it under the rug so to speak.

 

[MacGuffin]

That onl works of course, if you have a strong counter-movement. I am not entirely sure that all of the European countries would find the power to steer back into calm waters on their own. Maybe I'm pessimistic but the thing is that believing populism -- when left to its own devices -- is in most cases more tempting than facing reality.

 

[nomix]

The sitting government in Denmark (Venstre) actually isn't that right wing. The problem is that they rely on the support of Dansk Folkeparti (DF) which are as right wing (on immigration) as you can legally be, so Venstre have to keep a hard line if they want to stay in government.

I have the impression that large parts of Venstre is not very happy that they have to keep this hard of a line, and they are losing party members daily because of it, but it's either that or loose majority.

As it is explained in the media here at least, the border control we instituted is as much a consequence of the swedish border control as it is a domestic decision.

I don't agree with most of what they are doing, just trying to add some context.

Venstre have allowed DF to define this debate for far too long. I like to see coalition government as a stew. If you stew a lot of ingredients together, you'll get a mix of said ingredients. It doesn't matter that the meat is delicious if you put fucking soap in it. It's ruined. DF is the soap.

Border controls aren't the issue for me. It's the general move towards authoritarianism, the general xenophobia, and of course, Inger St?iberg. Plus this ludicrous confiscation of refugees' property. I get the impression that the mainstream objective of much of Danish policy is to be nasty. If being nasty has real life upsides, that's a bonus, but if it doesn't, then that's okay, as long as one's being nasty to asylum seekers. That seems like a goal, all of itself.

I know it's a very simplified (and probably insulting) view of Danish politics right now, but that is indeed what I feel.

I'm not afraid of Norway turning into the next califate. I'm afraid of us turning Danish.

Ditching the right-wingers and change coalition partners to a party more to the left is not an option?

The Social democrats have been disgusting on this matter for a very long time.

 

[M3lover]

Venstre have allowed DF to define this debate for far too long. I like to see coalition government as a stew. If you stew a lot of ingredients together, you'll get a mix of said ingredients. It doesn't matter that the meat is delicious if you put fucking soap in it. It's ruined. DF is the soap.

The thing is, that it's hard for Venstre not to let DF define the debate since Venstre is a minority government with 19,5 % of voters vs. 21,1 % for DF (this has shifted even further since the election last year).

Border controls aren't the issue for me. It's the general move towards authoritarianism, the general xenophobia, and of course, Inger St?iberg. Plus this ludicrous confiscation of refugees' property.

The issue of confiscation of property can certainly be labeled as a big fuck up for Inger St?jberg, but has luckily remained a proposition since no one apart from DF is backing it and the police has more or less said that they can't/won't enforce it, should it become law. I think it really hurt our image abroard as well.

I get the impression that the mainstream objective of much of Danish policy is to be nasty. If being nasty has real life upsides, that's a bonus, but if it doesn't, then that's okay, as long as one's being nasty to asylum seekers. That seems like a goal, all of itself.

On being "nasty" I think the government has a clear goal to make Denmark a less attractive place to seek asylum (and make it seem even worse than it actually is), so the refugees will go to our other neighbors in northern Europe instead. They opperate from the viewpoint that the refugees shop around and seek asylum in the countries with the best list of benefits.

Venstre at it's core want's to halt and/or reduce government spending and so far the asylum seekers from last year means an increase of almost 1 % in spending this year alone.

The Social democrats have been disgusting on this matter for a very long time.

The Social democrats (the biggest party in the left block and overall) have certainly also adopted a firmer stance on immagrants and refugees in the last couple of years so I guess that it what you are referring to? It's clearly an attempt to win back some of the voters they have lost to DF. Judging from to polls it seems that it's working though...

I know it's a very simplified (and probably insulting) view of Danish politics right now, but that is indeed what I feel.

I'm not afraid of Norway turning into the next califate. I'm afraid of us turning Danish.

No offence taken. As I mentioned earlier I don't agree with much of what they are doing. In the above I'm trying to give some insight into why they are acting like they do.

 

[nomix]

The thing is, that it's hard for Venstre not to let DF define the debate since Venstre is a minority government with 19,5 % of voters vs. 21,1 % for DF (this has shifted even further since the election last year).

That's fair enough, but it's not exactly anything new. They've been doing this for years.

The issue of confiscation of property can certainly be labeled as a big fuck up for Inger St?jberg, but has luckily remained a proposition since no one apart from DF is backing it and the police has more or less said that they can't/won't enforce it, should it become law. I think it really hurt our image abroard as well.

It is an act of such immense idiocy, I would suggest testing her.

On being "nasty" I think the government has a clear goal to make Denmark a less attractive place to seek asylum (and make it seem even worse than it actually is), so the refugees will go to our other neighbors in northern Europe instead. They opperate from the viewpoint that the refugees shop around and seek asylum in the countries with the best list of benefits.

Nasty.

Venstre at it's core want's to halt and/or reduce government spending and so far the asylum seekers from last year means an increase of almost 1 % in spending this year alone.

Sure. But if we look at this over time, it's closer to an investment. In any way, Denmark isn't exactly over burdened either. Sweden is allowed to ask for a time out (and should have a long time ago), but Denmark's POV is hard for me to accept.

The Social democrats (the biggest party in the left block and overall) have certainly also adopted a firmer stance on immagrants and refugees in the last couple of years so I guess that it what you are referring to? It's clearly an attempt to win back some of the voters they have lost to DF. Judging from to polls it seems that it's working though...

Yeah, Labour party in Norway is the same. Here's the thing we often overlook with immigration. Working class people tend to be less likely to like it. When Enoch Powel held his Rivers of blood speech, it was the London dockers, as left wing as they come, who came out in support. I think you always have to keep that in mind.

No offence taken. As I mentioned earlier I don't agree with much of what they are doing. In the above I'm trying to give some insight into why they are acting like they do.

I know, I know. I've watched Borgen.

 

[kunedog]

"the truth even if it hurts"

(most relevant parts from 4:30 to 16:30, and from 32:30 onwards):

Who would have thought that, once the facts started coming out, the attacks would turn out to be so closely linked to the refugee situation.

 

[MacGuffin]

Some guy with a YouTube channel is not what I'd consider a reliable journalistic source.

What you have here, is basically a guy who already has an opinion and has been looking for stuff to support his opinion, no matter how far-fetched it might be. And now he is trying to spread his opinion go get applause from like-minded people.

I think it has been said much about this topic and I suggest you read up here on the forum what other people posted before. It just isn't necessary to restart the discussion from zero again.

Especially look here: https://forums.finalgear.com/politi...-refugee-situation-60023/page-19/#post2346720

 

[Interrobang]

[...]Who would have thought that, once the facts started coming out, the attacks would turn out to be so closely linked to the refugee situation.

Who would have thought? A lot of people. The notion that people did not directly link this to refugees is silly.
But it has also become apparent that Syrian and Irakian refugees were not the main perpetrators here - and some people have been (and still are) overly keen to put the blame on those. Are all refugees and immigrants** the same and should be viewed as criminals? No, obviously not. But those who do commit these crimes should be punished by all means the law offers. Syrian, Maroccan, immigrant, refugee, german - or whatever.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Year's_Eve_sexual_assaults_in_Germany

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taharrush_gamea
Police still need to find good strategies against this, but they should crack down on this with everything they got. For me there is also no question that people from other countries who take part in this can no longer stay in germany, neither as refugee nor immigrant* - once found guilty and after punishment, of course.

* which is of course already the law - which does not hinder politicians to demand this now of course, populism never get?s out of fashion.
** I?m an immigrant myself currently so I do take this somewhat personally. I hate the word "expat", but that?s a different discussion.

 

[nomix]

Muslim commentators in Norway seem quite outraged over all of this, as it does play into the hands of the people painting muslims as animals.

 

[Delll]

Some guy with a YouTube channel is not what I'd consider a reliable journalistic source.

What you have here, is basically a guy who already has an opinion and has been looking for stuff to support his opinion, no matter how far-fetched it might be. And now he is trying to spread his opinion go get applause from like-minded people.

I think it has been said much about this topic and I suggest you read up here on the forum what other people posted before. It just isn't necessary to restart the discussion from zero again.

Especially look here: https://forums.finalgear.com/politi...-refugee-situation-60023/page-19/#post2346720

I know Europe is homogeneous and all, but if Cologne (and other cities'...) police have no idea, maybe they could ask their Finnish counterparts for help. There was a mass sexual harassment case in Helsinki on NYE as well (curiously only reported by the press after the German one had blown up..). Police are investigating at least 1 rape, 2 attempted rapes, 12 cases of sexual harassment in conjunction with assault, attempted robbery, etc. on women aged 14-66 (at least one of the attempted rapes' victims was decribed as "a young girl"). (HS in Finnish)

To their credit, some other asylum seekers did apparently tip the cops off. Unfortunately they didn't seem to be able to do anything, as the attempted rapes were stopped by outsiders. Tellingly one of the few English articles written by an "authoritative" Finnish source basically says "harassment has been going on forever, this is nothing new, immigrants are not a problem", despite this:

The debate was also inspired by an AFP news agency interview with Helsinki?s deputy police chief Ilkka Koskim?ki in The Telegraph, published on Friday, January 8. The article says that Finnish police reported an unusually high level of sexual harassment in Helsinki on New Year's Eve, and that ?they had been tipped off about plans by groups of asylum seekers to sexually harass women?.

?There hasn't been this kind of harassment on previous New Year's Eves or other occasions for that matter... This is a completely new phenomenon in Helsinki,? Koskim?ki is quoted as saying in the article.

(Yle)

Some of them are really concerned about their reputation, even going so far as to try and burn other asylum seekers alive (a peace-loving, PTSD-suffering asylum seeker, clearly).

A fire broke out at the Rautaharko reception centre in Tampere when unknown individuals hurled the firebomb at the building. Staff reacted quickly and managed to put out the blaze before fire officials arrived on the scene.
--
Police are investigating the incident, and suspect the fire may have been set by a resident. Other asylum seeker reception centres in various parts of the country have previously been the targets of arson attempts.

(Yle)
Since then, the reception centre's staff have admitted it was one of the residents (Yle in Finnish) and blamed it on a lack of activities... Meanwhile, other asylum seekers complain about having to clean and help in the kitchen, saying "they're not used to that kind of treatment", saying they don't get enough money so their family in Iraq sends 200-250? per month (despite getting a roof and food for free). Oh and why did they come to Finland? Because it was the first safe country? Nope. "We came to Finland through many countries and we wanted to come to Finland because everyone praised it. It was supposed to be a humane country where people are treated well." (If Iraq is more humane, why doesn't he go back? I'll play his flights.) (IS in Finnish)

 

[nomix]

Yadda yadda yadda. We get it. They're all a bunch of spoilt bastards who molest women.

 

[Delll]

Yadda yadda yadda. We get it. They're all a bunch of spoilt bastards who molest women.

You seem to understand. Excellent. Now could we agree on how to solve this problem? I say ship them all back to Iraq. Through Oslo.

 

[nomix]

I say ship you to Iraq. For being a bloody nuisance.

Or maybe not. I hope you're receptive to jokes.

 

[kunedog]

I think it has been said much about this topic and I suggest you read up here on the forum what other people posted before. It just isn't necessary to restart the discussion from zero again.

Especially look here: https://forums.finalgear.com/politi...-refugee-situation-60023/page-19/#post2346720

If there was a "zero" point in the discussion of the Cologne attacks, it indeed was probably around the time you linked to. That's when the gov't/police were still pretending the attacks weren't a big deal (despite knowing better), the press was still intent on sweeping them under the rug (and demonizing as neo-nazi racists those critics who dared to discuss the subject), and a not-insignificant number of folks (who now know better) were still naive enough to trust authorities and press not to misrepresent and mishandle such an incident so badly.

Don't worry; it ain't coming back (not the "trust" part, at least).

Who would have thought? A lot of people. The notion that people did not directly link this to refugees is silly.
But it has also become apparent that Syrian and Irakian refugees were not the main perpetrators here - and some people have been (and still are) overly keen to put the blame on those. Are all refugees and immigrants** the same and should be viewed as criminals? No, obviously not. But those who do commit these crimes should be punished by all means the law offers. Syrian, Maroccan, immigrant, refugee, german - or whatever.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Year's_Eve_sexual_assaults_in_Germany

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taharrush_gamea
Police still need to find good strategies against this, but they should crack down on this with everything they got. For me there is also no question that people from other countries who take part in this can no longer stay in germany, neither as refugee nor immigrant* - once found guilty and after punishment, of course.

* which is of course already the law - which does not hinder politicians to demand this now of course, populism never get?s out of fashion.
** I?m an immigrant myself currently so I do take this somewhat personally. I hate the word "expat", but that?s a different discussion.

I agree with you for the most part. Not sure what to think of that second article. The term was referenced in the video and it seemed suspicious that some WP editors were trying to get it deleted, but then I saw that it was only created less than ten days ago (interesting argument on its discussion page).

 

[MacGuffin]

If there was a "zero" point in the discussion of the Cologne attacks, it indeed was probably around the time you linked to. That's when the gov't/police were still pretending the attacks weren't a big deal (despite knowing better), the press was still intent on sweeping them under the rug (and demonizing as neo-nazi racists those critics who dared to discuss the subject), and a not-insignificant number of folks (who now know better) were still naive enough to trust authorities and press not to misrepresent and mishandle such an incident so badly.

Don't worry; it ain't coming back (not the "trust" part, at least)..

What are you fantasizing about? Nothing was cleaned under the rug here and from the very beginning here absolutely no one said if wasn't a big deal.

You seem confused.

 

[LeVeL]

I find it amusing that Germans are ready to throw themselves under the bus and take the blame for something that Middle Eastern refugees participated in.

"Refugees welcome!"
"You're going to have some issues if you do this.."
"No we're not, you xenophobe/islamaphobe/racist!"
--Cologne attacks; Swedish attacks--
"See? I told you there would be issues."
"But they're mostly good! In fact, it wasn't even their fault!"

 

[MacGuffin]

Only saying that you're twisting the facts here to your liking, would be a vast understatement.

You almost made an art of picking out ONLY the things that fit in your view, then twisting it around into a completely different context and present it as the one and only truth.

You would have been a model citizen in George Orwell's "1984". I wonder what's coming next from you?

"War is peace"?

"Freedom is slavery"?

"Ignorance is strength"?

I wouldn't put it past you, to be honest...

 

[LeVeL]

Wait, you think I'm Big Brother? Are you drunk? :lol:

Look, I'm not flat-out against taking in refugees. But making it into a "hurr durr look how awesomely progressive I am" spectacle was moronic from the very beginning. You let in a ton of third-world refugees without much screening or checking; some of them are in camps because you don't know what to do with them; many others are (obviously unemployed and) walking around freely and (surprise surprise) sometimes engaging in crime. Sorry, but I don't recall Germany having mass-scale sexual assault before all of this happened - correct me if I'm wrong here. What you should've done was toss political correctness to the wind, imposed strict border control and thorough background checks, and then allowed in however many refugees a) got through at whatever speed the system processed them, and b) your economy can support. I'm all for helping foreigners (I am one, for fuck's sake) but like this. Then again I consider Europe's unrestricted international travel idea to be the epitome of irresponsibility and stupidity and we're seeing some of the effects of that right now.

 

[MacGuffin]

The European Refugee Situation

With such an attitude I am surprised you don't support Donald Trump. You seem like one who could fall for his simple-solution populism.

I already commented about it further up and for a moment I was tempted to copy and paste my post from a couple of days ago word by word as the only reply to you.

I must assume that you'd rather let hundreds of thousands of people (including women and children) starve of freeze to death than giving them shelter. I can see no other explanation for your continuously stupid remarks about how Germany was so naive to give them shelter.

You probably lean back in your chair in your well-heated, undestroyed American home and have a snack while watching all the disgusting poverty and misery on TV: How dare them leaving their war zone and trying to enter the First World in search for help? And how naive of them to believe the Geneva convention concerning war refugees had any value.

I am pissed, too. Pissed at the fact that Germany, Sweden and Austria are the only ones trying to fight the fire, while the other 25 EU countries look at the mess like uninvolved spectators. If you need to channel your disgust, lead it into their direction and not towards those who are willing to help, insulting those who feel sympathy and show compassion.

Here's another idea: How about some constructive criticism for a change? All people like you seem to be able to do, is saying destructive bullshit.

 

[nomix]

I find it amusing that Germans are ready to throw themselves under the bus and take the blame for something that Middle Eastern refugees participated in.

"Refugees welcome!"
"You're going to have some issues if you do this.."
"No we're not, you xenophobe/islamaphobe/racist!"
--Cologne attacks; Swedish attacks--
"See? I told you there would be issues."
"But they're mostly good! In fact, it wasn't even their fault!"

I find it amusing you're willing to blame about a millioner refugees in Europe for the actions of a comparative few. I also find it amusing that you're recreating a conversation that wasn't really happening.

More like:

"Refugees welcome!"
"They are all swines and animals!"
"No they're not, you xenophobe/islamaphobe/racist!"
--Cologne attacks; Swedish attacks--
"They are all swines and animals! CLEANSE EUROPE!"
"But they're mostly good! In fact, it wasn't even their fault!"
--Rest of Europe to the idiots in two cities:
"Shut up, it is their fault. And they're still mostly good."
"But they're poisoning the wells!"
"Oh shut up about the apocolypse."

Now, that's pretty inaccurate. But it's more accurate than yours, which was, to be honest, a travasty.