The F1 Technical Developments Thread

ALXBWSCREW

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Yes, but with all due respect the mechanics aren't the ones who ultimately make the cars go faster.

Not that I want to be mean or anything but I think you're missing the point here.

It's the engineers back at the factory (who don't fly round the world, but just work bloody long hours) who should get paid more than they do.

Don't worry, engineers get paid more than enough by F1 teams as they know that they're critical in order to get a good car.
 

Dr_Grip

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Don't worry, engineers get paid more than enough by F1 teams as they know that they're critical in order to get a good car.

AFAIK WillDAQ is an engineer for a F1 team/a third-party contractor to an F1 team. I guess he knows pretty damn well how much he makes.
 

ahpadt

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If he is then he should get a price for 'relative bluntness' when it comes to details about the teams/cars... :p I know it's in the contract to not say much, but still.
 

WillDAQ

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Not that I want to be mean or anything but I think you're missing the point here.

Don't worry, engineers get paid more than enough by F1 teams as they know that they're critical in order to get a good car.

Yes and no. They tend to pay typical rates but the actual hours involved tend to be much longer.

You've also got to remember that the actual creative spark for the car comes from relatively few people. For every aerodynamicist there are cad jockeys, machinists, model makers and tunnel technicians. For many of these people working in an F1 team is just like any other job, with average pay. The tricky bit is what you do with the actual design staff, while some are paid well, most could earn more consulting... these are the guys who do it for the love.
 

Pininfarina_

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LOLNEWEY front wing.

From last year, but felt like contributing something.

(I think there's a little graphical glitch in the gif; I'm new to gimp.)
 

Dr_Grip

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I'm not sure that's RBR's flexy front wing. To me it looks like RBR's broken front wing.
 

otispunkmeyer

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So what's the actual salary?

I've heard about many people, some on this forum included, who say that recently graduated engineers in the UK get shit pay. I have a hard time believing this as my girlfriend who studies pharmacy says it's not unusual to see a ?40k+ pay after a handful of years. Surely an engineer would get as much? In Norway as a graduate you can easily start with close to 400.000 kroner which is about ~?40k, altho the level of pay is obviously a lot higher. It's actually almost the opposite here, cos pretty much every phamarcy is owned by a big company so I can only imagine the salary will never be that amazing.

The UK is such a big engineering industry aswell (atleast compared to Norway), so..... why?

(untidy post but whatever)

seems pharmacy is more valued than engineering in the UK then.

Im a recent engineering graduate (I have come back to uni to do a PhD because of the shitty jobs market). But when I started my grad scheme the going rate for new starters was anywhere from 20-26k depending on job and what grade of degree you got (ie BEng or MEng and usually dependant on class too i.e. a 1st class, a 2nd class upper, 2nd lower or 3rd class degree).

Now where I was we started on 24k were promised ?1000 a year increase for the 2 grad years (didnt happen) and after I enquired about what future career I might have there I found out that typical progression and salaries are thus:

27k for your first graduate position after the grad scheme and then you steadily work your way up over years ( and I mean years here... there are 30, nearly 40 somethings who started out on the grad scheme and are still working as engineers and not yet reached a position of management or expert) and the standard payrise per year is 3%, 5% if you've been absolutely outstanding (almost impossible to get, especially in todays climate). So yeah its very possible to be approaching your mid life crisis point and still be earning sub 40k doing proper engineering in this country. By proper I mean designing the very machines that keep this country and every other country in lights, kettles, tv's and heating 24/7/365 (Im talking power stations and steam turbines).

That is pretty much standard fare across a lot of engineering jobs in the UK. If you get into say Shell or BP then I think their grads start on 30 or more, but thats the oil industry for you!!!. There are obviously some higher paid positions, usually on the management or project leadership side where you might get anywhere between 50 and 70k (you need a wealth of experience for this, and that means your going to be an old man). Some management or supervisory jobs could be 45-65k ish. There are high paying engineering jobs of course, but unlike the city and its financial sector, high pay is the exception not the rule.

The UK does have some genuinely good engineering companies, but to be honest I think a succession of governments has basically ignored engineering and manufacturing in this country for a long time.... dazzled no doubt by the inflated profit and loss books of the city. Its kicking them in the arse now because the only real way to generate wealth is to make things. Adding value to raw materials. This is why Germany rode the storm so well, 45% of their GDP (dont quote me, i just heard it) is from making valuable items for export. I dont think the UK has much left in the way of british owned engineering bar small consultancies and F1.

IMEchE are partly to blame as well. Theyre supposed to be banging the drum for engineering here and they dont.... no protected status, very little benefit to chartership with them, in short its difficult to keep paying my subs to them because I fail to see what they actually do for my chosen career. Also on the blame list... engineers themselves. Lots of them just dont have the attitude that they are worth more, lots of them just accept their lot and so long as they are kept busy with interesting things they keep quiet. Most of us engineers need to engineer a spine and really negotiate our selves more money and make ourselves look more valuable. We also need to move around more... the only way you can guarrantee higher salaries is if you move around regularly, but a lot of engineers again stay in the same job for eons because its safe.


By contrast I spoke to a guy who started out as an engineer but now works in the city. He said he works less hours, in a cushy office, making up numbers and makes 4-5x the money. He said he will never leave that no matter how boring because that job gives him and his new family a very sure footing. so there you go, slow paced city job earning 150k a year for doing no real work.
 

Red_Bull

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Yeah, I kinda got that, but the subject opened with F1 mechanics...and I can't think of a better dream job.

Hehe, well in his book (which you guys should really pick up :p) he writes briefly on the subject. He gave an example where he and other Benetton mechanics were at Monaco and trying to build a jig to repair the gearboxes. In Monaco before the new pit complex where they worked out of awnings and conditions were a total nightmare. And there was a spectator who was watching on and saying how he'd love to be doing that. Matchett was pretty much thinking 'yeah you can have it'.

My job looks pretty good on the outside as well. I work freight trains and there are plenty of train enthusiasts around who say they'd love to be doing what I'm doing. I can see the attraction of course, and the job does live up to those sort of expectations sometimes. Most other times it's working at 2am in a yard in the freezing cold rain and wind shunting a train together, or stopping in the middle of nowhere in 45 degree heat to go back and see why NR114 has failed again...:p

I wouldnt do it if I didnt like it though. To hell with sitting in an office all day. And it pays well I guess :p
 
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WillDAQ

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Thread went dead... have a quote.

This is the fourth time i've been to your leaving party, at four different teams... so there's little point saying goodbye again.
 

ahpadt

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http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/91475

Formula 1's competitive order at the front of the field could be thrown on its head in this weekend's Spanish Grand Prix with the FIA having made a major change to the exhaust blown diffuser regulations, AUTOSPORT has learned.

With the design and execution of blown diffusers being viewed as a key area of the 2011 development race, teams have been pushing hard with their concepts to try and eek out any competitive advantage they can.

One aspect that has been worked on a lot is in ensuring that a flow of exhaust gases keep pumping through the diffuser, to help increase downforce, even when the throttle is not in use.

But now, on the back of some teams expending huge effort in tweaking engine modes to help gain performance in this area, the FIA has acted and decided to clamp down on what they are up to.

High level sources have revealed that the FIA has written to teams informing them that from this weekend's Spanish Grand Prix they will no longer be allowed to continue flowing gases through the engine when the driver is not on the throttle.

It is understood the directive to the teams tells them that, under braking, the throttle input can now be no larger than 10 per cent of its maximum. Some outfits had been gaining aerodynamic benefit from keeping the throttle flow at 100 per cent under braking.

To push this regulation change through, the FIA has deemed that throttle use will be allowed only for the purpose of increasing torque, not for 'aerodynamic performance'.

This effectively means that any team found to be using off-throttle blown diffusers could be in breach of the famous Article 3.15 of the technical regulations that outlaws moveable aerodynamic devices.

The change in regulations is set to hurt every team running a blown diffuser - although some may be hurt more than others.

Mercedes GP team principal Ross Brawn said: "It will affect all the teams. These staccato exhausts you hear, I don't think you are going to hear them anymore.

"The teams have all been developing their engine management systems to get the maximum advantage from the exhausts, and the FIA want to push us in a different direction now so there will be changes there.

"I've no idea what will be the outcome there, but it has forced all the teams to have a fresh look at what they are doing in terms of engine strategies."

However, with McLaren having recently hinted that it viewed off-throttle engine maps as a key to Red Bull Racing's qualifying form, the change in regulations could mean the reigning world champion team is one of the worst hit.

Speaking to AUTOSPORT about the impact of the change in rules, Red Bull Racing team principal Christian Horner said: "I think that it is going to have an affect with all teams that have been utilising it.

"That appears to be 90 per cent of the grid, if you look at how many teams are running blown diffusers. It is not something unique to this year, it is something that started last year, so Barcelona will clearly show what effect this will have."

When asked if he thought the rules change had come about as the result of a complaint from a rival team to try and slow Red Bull Racing down, Horner said: "It is inevitable and the unfortunate consequence of success."
No more crazy off the throttle rasp :(
 

bone

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lets hope this ends red bull's dominance...
 
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Sir Stiggington

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This is pretty crazy. Such short notice as well. Doesn't this mean a complete rethink of the whole blown diffuser and whether it's viable. I thought the only reason we have blown diffusers was because we figured out how to keep the gas flowing while off throttle, hence keeping steady downforce levels. Once that is gone, the cars will be SO unpredictable...
 

Susurrate

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Yeah nice. We can't compete, get the fia to change the rules.
 
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Topgearfanatic

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The whole ruling is retarded, so much like tuned mass dampers, grasping at straws to claim something is a movable aero device. If I remember correctly, the regulations don't restrict exhaust gases when they are no longer being channeled or in pipes, if that area was regulated they wouldn't have to try and pull some cause and effect bullshit like they did with the TMD. How exactly can they police this anyway? By correlating load sensors and throttle input?
 

SchumacherM

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Won't do much IMHO. It's just banning the engine maps that keep the throttle open through corners.
 

WillDAQ

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How exactly can they police this anyway?

Trust. None of the innovation in F1 comes from breaking rules, instead it's all about finding new loopholes. As soon as something is ruled illegal it goes on the scrap pile, there's no point wasting time on developing something you know will get you into trouble.

If a team were to continue using the maps the other teams would notice, a test would be devised and that would force the team back in line (think flexi-wings).
 

Topgearfanatic

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All right, I'm thinking flexi-wings; Now I'm thinking of all the flexing still happening. Testing is only as good as the situations the rule makers want to prove and enforce. If they don't know what makes the wings flex on track, they won't be able to replicate it with static loads.
 
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