The F1 Technical Developments Thread

Dr_Grip

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Yeah nice. We can't compete, get the fia to change the rules.
But who's the "we" of your conspiracy? If i remember correctly, all top teams used these things last year as well. McLaren, Ferrari and Mercedes have nothing to gain from this as it will hit them just like it hits the RBR. I don't know enough about how this aero stuff works to say what it means for Renaults front exhaust, but as far as i understood that needs a steady airflow as well, in which case they won't gain an advantage, too.

EDIT: Hasn't the "blown diffuser" concept made it's way down the pecking order all the way to Team Lotus by now? Or, other way round, are there any teams except of HRT and Virgin who don't run an exhaust-blown diffuser or are (were?) planning to introduce one in Barcelona?
 
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SpitfireMK461

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There is no reason for this order. Saying it violates the moving aerodynamics rule is plain stupid. It just seems like a way of saying "Hey, top teams, you are too good. Stop being so good."
 

ALXBWSCREW

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Nevermind, the FIA has changed its mind:

Autosport said:
Formula 1 teams have been given a reprieve to continue using blown diffusers freely from this weekend's Spanish Grand Prix, AUTOSPORT can reveal, after the FIA had a rethink about going ahead with a major change to the regulations.

As reported earlier, the FIA issued a clarification to teams following the Turkish Grand Prix that would have banned them from using clever engine mapping settings to keep gases pumping through the diffuser even when the driver was off-throttle.

Teams had been benefiting from keeping gases flowing through the diffuser at the same rate as when the driver was on throttle, even when he was fully on the brakes. This maximised the downforce benefits gained from the use of a blown diffuser.

However, a directive from the FIA clarified that teams were only allowed to use the throttle settings for increasing torque, not for 'aerodynamic performance' - which effectively banned them from keeping gases pushing through the diffuser off-throttle.

That edict meant teams faced work to tweak their engine settings for this weekend's race at the Circuit de Catalunya, and leading figures - including Red Bull Racing's Christian Horner and Mercedes GP's Ross Brawn - said they were unsure how the competitive order would be affected by the changes.

However, following dialogue between the FIA and the teams, AUTOSPORT can reveal that the governing body decided late on Tuesday not to go through with the change to the blown diffuser regulations for Barcelona.

A high level source indicated that the decision had been taken because a number of 'unforeseen and unintended consequences' of the ban had been brought to the FIA's attention.

It is not clear what these consequences were, but teams that had benefited the most from the blown diffuser regulations may have complained about potential difficulties that they may have faced in making necessary changes to car set-up in such a short space of time.

Although off-throttle usage of blown diffusers remains in place for now, AUTOSPORT understands that the matter has been put to the top of the agenda for the next meeting of F1 think tank, the Technical Working Group.

It is understood that the FIA is keen for the off-throttle usage to be stamped out as soon as it can be implemented without causing further complications for the teams.
 

Dr_Grip

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It just seems like a way of saying "Hey, top teams, you are too good. Stop being so good."

Which is exactely what a governing body of a motorsports has to do. There are two ways to ensure that there's competition on the track: Having a spec series where all teams race with more or less the same car (NASCAR and Indy would be the most prominent examples there) or use the rules to keep a single team (or a small group of teams) from getting too good for the sport's good. A situation like Australia 98, where Mika and David in the (Newey-designed) McLaren lapped the whole field can not be in anyone's interest. Avoiding this can be done by using handicap rules like in the DTM, where winning drivers/manufactureres are not only awarded points, but also extra weight, or by bending the rules to slightly favour Ferrari the runners-up teams by spontaneously banning whatever makes the front-runner(s) dominate - which traditionally has been the F1 way.

EDIT/DISCLAIMER:It is well-know to me that the FIA, depending on political and/or national alliances ruled in favour of Ferrari, the French, Michael Schumacher and a bunch of other entities over the years. Some times this was for the good of the sports, some times for the good of commerce, some times just bad. "Ferrari" is just a joke/stand-in up there.
 
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Topgearfanatic

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But the FIA don't say they are banning such and such to equalize competition, they mask it under bullshit like lowering cornering speeds or driver safety. AFAIK, the FIA has no right, in the regulations, to equalize the performance of any single car during the season.
 

Dr_Grip

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Because the FIA has no right, in the regulations, to equalize the performance of any single car during the season, the FIA don't say they are banning such and such to equalize competition, they mask it under bullshit like lowering cornering speeds or driver safety.

See, it's quite logical the other way round. I am not advocationg this, i'm just explaining how it works.

And honestly, i can't think of a better system right now.
 

SpitfireMK461

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It's one thing when a single team is dominating the field, but currently we have 4/5 teams really competing with each other, and only 1 driver in that mix is doing any sort of dominating.
 

bone

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EDIT: Hasn't the "blown diffuser" concept made it's way down the pecking order all the way to Team Lotus by now? Or, other way round, are there any teams except of HRT and Virgin who don't run an exhaust-blown diffuser or are (were?) planning to introduce one in Barcelona?

yes, but red bull (and renault with FEE) is the only one that managed to get exhaust gasses coming from below the diffuser, where they have a much bigger impact. the other teams just blow the exhaust gasses over it, in the hope it will suck some air from underneath when it goes over the trailing edge

if it isn't clear for someone, what exactly they were banning, good description here: http://scarbsf1.wordpress.com/2010/07/10/red-bull-map-q-the-secret-to-the-teams-q3-pace/
 
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bone

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^ It's illegal to blow gasses underneath the diffuser.

no it isn't. you can't have holes in the floor for the exhaust(gasses) to pass through.

renault fixed it by having the exhaust exit at the front, while red bull fixed it by having them go through the floor just in front of the rear wheels, and shaped the floor so the gasses are directed towards the diffuser...
 

WillDAQ

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All right, I'm thinking flexi-wings; Now I'm thinking of all the flexing still happening. Testing is only as good as the situations the rule makers want to prove and enforce. If they don't know what makes the wings flex on track, they won't be able to replicate it with static loads.

Exactly, they meet the rules. It's the FIA's problem that the new rules still have loop holes.

I'd also suggest that as the movable front wing issue isn't really an issue amongst the teams any more they must understand the dynamics of it by now.
 

WillDAQ

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There is no reason for this order. Saying it violates the moving aerodynamics rule is plain stupid. It just seems like a way of saying "Hey, top teams, you are too good. Stop being so good."

You realise Torro Rosso started the season with one right? It is not some new toy the top teams alone have.

yes, but red bull (and renault with FEE) is the only one that managed to get exhaust gasses coming from below the diffuser, where they have a much bigger impact. the other teams just blow the exhaust gasses over it, in the hope it will suck some air from underneath when it goes over the trailing edge

That isn't how the systems work. Without getting into too much depth the best blown diffusers are the ones which interact correctly with flow from the rear wheels.

(sorry for DP)
 
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bone

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That isn't how the systems work. Without getting into too much depth the best blown diffusers are the ones which interact correctly with flow from the rear wheels.

(sorry for DP)

it's the F1 thread! please do go into detail!

underside of the R31


rear of the RB7


i think it's safe to say they both have exhaust gasses coming from underneath the diffuser?

here is an image of the system McLaren tried pre season (similar to red bull), but couldn't get to work properly (unlike red bull)
 
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ahpadt

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It needs to be pointed out that it's only the outer 10cm of the diffuser that's 'allowed to be blown' - supposedly a loophole in the regs.
 

mpicco

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A good way to police if engines are blowing off throttle is by simply hearing... if it sounds like the whole wind section of an orchestra is farting and coughing at the same time during a corner, then it's being blown.
 

Topgearfanatic

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Too subjective, just like they can't call a wing illegal because they see it flexing on track. The tests can only happen in a controlled environment where no outside elements can interfere. A broken exhaust sounds similar to the retarded ignition system.
 

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The UK does have some genuinely good engineering companies, but to be honest I think a succession of governments has basically ignored engineering and manufacturing in this country for a long time.... dazzled no doubt by the inflated profit and loss books of the city. Its kicking them in the arse now because the only real way to generate wealth is to make things. Adding value to raw materials. This is why Germany rode the storm so well, 45% of their GDP (dont quote me, i just heard it) is from making valuable items for export. I dont think the UK has much left in the way of british owned engineering bar small consultancies and F1.

That is surprising and sad at the same time. Our company used to have a big R&D facility in the UK (Basildon) but, then it all got moved to Italy, here, and Belgium. We still have an assembly plant there though.
 

Pininfarina_

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A good way to police if engines are blowing off throttle is by simply hearing... if it sounds like the whole wind section of an orchestra is farting and coughing at the same time during a corner, then it's being blown.

I can't hear ANYTHING over that engine O.O. Guess it'll be easier to tell once we hit 2013 and the engines go silent.
 

bone

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I can't hear ANYTHING over that engine O.O. Guess it'll be easier to tell once we hit 2013 and the engines go silent.

who said that? the sound will be even higher pitched than it is now!
 
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