The General Motorbikers Discussion Thread

GRtak said:
Spectre is always right about these things, you can argue all you want, but he has the ultimate knowledge of why everything has or will fail. Except comparing electronics to cars is somewhat foolish, especially computers to cars where every ass hat has to be in charge of their special connection.

I think things will work themselves out to a standard voltage and connector the same way we use basically the same spark plug now.
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Not burst your bubble, but not always. The reason electric bikes won't be popular? Lack of range and lack of speed. And what's the biggest selling bike in history? The Honda Super Cub. Wait, what?

Honda CEO Takeo Fukui said that an electric bike makes sense as the battery characteristics and driving range fits a motorcycle profile - as they are generally used for shorter trips.

Mr Fukui is confident the product could potentially be a hot ticket item for Honda, especially in emerging countries, where motorcycles are popular means of transportation. The cheap running costs would also broaden the appeal if the initial outlay was reasonable.
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And yes, there have been breakthroughs that will make electric bikes feasible.

"I've seen examples of electric motorcycles from the '30s and '40s, but really the technology has held all this back," he says. "You've had very heavy batteries and heavy motors, and the performance was terrible."

There were two breakthroughs that made electric motorcycles possible, Saiki says. First, the small, high-powered motors the military has been using for torpedoes were finally made available to the public sector. Then came powerful lithium-ion batteries, "about eight times more powerful per weight than typical lead acid batteries."
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And again, arguing about the practicalities of motorbikes is ridiculous. I can buy a Suzuki car that seats 4 with air-con, a radio, passenger protection etc etc for the same price as a middle of the range 400cc Suzuki bike, and the car gets better fuel economy.

And yes, there are standards. Even USB. USB-A is the standard connector.
 
Any electric vehicle is limited in range. Period. They might be fine for dicking around in big cities and urban areas but once you get away from major coastal population centers you are shit out of luck when it comes to getting from A to B. Forget sporty rides, touring, or sport-touring. Forget adventure rides or enduro trips.

Call me when batteries can match what we have for gasoline engines - and not just for short sprints. Don't get me wrong, I want clean air and water, but I don't think that electric vehicles are the answer for everyone. Sure if you live in a major city and don't do road trips they will fulfill your needs, but where I live you can't even get to the next city with an electric vehicle because it's a full day's drive on the interstate.

I'd also like someone to show me the numbers that producing and disposing of toxic batteries full of rare-earth elements is in any way better for the planet than internal combustion. Politically it's no different either, guess who has access to most the materials needed to make batteries? HINT: it's not the US or Europe.
 
Blind_Io said:
Any electric vehicle is limited in range. Period. They might be fine for dicking around in big cities and urban areas but once you get away from major coastal population centers you are shit out of luck when it comes to getting from A to B. Forget sporty rides, touring, or sport-touring. Forget adventure rides or enduro trips.

Call me when batteries can match what we have for gasoline engines - and not just for short sprints. Don't get me wrong, I want clean air and water, but I don't think that electric vehicles are the answer for everyone. Sure if you live in a major city and don't do road trips they will fulfill your needs, but where I live you can't even get to the next city with an electric vehicle because it's a full day's drive on the interstate.

I'd also like someone to show me the numbers that producing and disposing of toxic batteries full of rare-earth elements is in any way better for the planet than internal combustion. Politically it's no different either, guess who has access to most the materials needed to make batteries? HINT: it's not the US or Europe.
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This, and also people continue to forget where we get our electricity from- the pwer grid, which uses coal and other fossil fuels to generate the electricity. Not as clean as everybody proclaims, eh?

There was a brilliant article about electric vehicles (specifically motorbikes) in either AMCN (Aus Motorcycling News) or Two Wheels magazine a month or so ago and how they aren't the answer to climate change and fixing the environment. I'm not very well educated on alternative fuels, but I think once a "clean" way of obtaining hydrogen and using it in decent range and power engines is found, we will be so much better of. Eaier said than done though....

On-topic, went for a quick (i.e. 1.5 hours on the bike, 1 hr off having lunch) ride (as a pillion of course) today, loved it :D. All my gear stands up well to the cold too, which is a positive. Still need to look into a better helmet though, not only is it making the right hand isde of my face ache badly it now doesn't vent properly and the visor is crappy. That's what i get for getting a cheapo though (not my choice :()
 
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Blind_Io said:
I don't think that electric vehicles are the answer for everyone. Sure if you live in a major city and don't do road trips they will fulfill your needs, but where I live you can't even get to the next city with an electric vehicle because it's a full day's drive on the interstate.
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Great, yes, fine. I never said they were. Spectre seems to be arguing that because they aren't practical for him they will never be practical for anyone, anywhere.

Let me just mention a couple of things and then I'll let it go. I said that removable batteries were practical and I still believe that. In my opinion setting a standard for the connection of those removable batteries to the charger would be ideal. I gave a number of examples of standards that are in use today;
  • USB - I can plug any USB device into my computer and it will work. About 15 years old.
  • Photographic film - I can buy film for my camera that's over 100 years old and have it processed. I can even put a digital back on the same camera.
  • Batteries - I can buy them pretty much anywhere in the world and they will fit, and work.

And I could continue, credit/debit cards for example, but I won't.

Spectre used examples such as media cards, oil filters and car batteries for which there is no standard to try to prove that standards don't work. Good argument.

But, even if no standard were set it still doesn't mean that removable batteries couldn't be viable.

And even if that were true, it still doesn't mean that the electric bike isn't viable.

Take the internal combustion engine as an example. Do they run on one fuel? Is there one kind of connection to fill up? No and no. They run on petrol, which comes in many different octane ratings, diesel, LPG, CNG and ethanol blends. The internal combustion engine is completely impractical.

Just one more thing. When LPG was introduced into Australia there were few places it was available, most of them were in urban areas. To convert your car was expensive, it reduced the power, fuel consumption and range yet people did it. Why? It reduced running costs.

The running cost of a "Zero" electric bike at the moment is less than .01c/km or mile according to their website. If I did just a 30km (18.6mile) return commute (could be done by bicycle) 5 days a week that works out to $640/yr for my bike vs max $80/yr for the electric bike. That doesn't include oil, oil filter, air filter etc. nor any rebates, tax breaks or concession for it being a zero emissions vehicle.
 
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Twerp128 said:
Not to ruin the conversation, but the 911 layout also offers some supreme advantages. Journalists can say what they want but 50 years of racing wins kind of says a lot more.
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50 years or racing in classes where 50% of the participants drive 911s as well, so the chances of winning are 1/2

in the races where they actually had to battle, they used mid engined cars as well (917 etc)
 
hansvonaxion said:
*snip*

Take the internal combustion engine as an example. Do they run on one fuel? Is there one kind of connection to fill up? No and no. They run on petrol, which comes in many different octane ratings, diesel, LPG, CNG and ethanol blends. The internal combustion engine is completely impractical.
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Talk about a leap. Diesel and various octane ratings of gasoline are readily available. Diesel pumps even have a slightly larger filler so it won't even fit in a gasoline-powered car. LPG and CNG are less common and mostly used by fleet services locally with filling contracts at certain providers, not as viable cross-country vehicles. LPG and CNG are a tiny segment of the industry and not standard. Ethanol blends are also very common and most engines run fine on an Ethanol blend, pure ethanol is another story and less common in most of the US.

Just one more thing. When LPG was introduced into Australia there were few places it was available, most of them were in urban areas. To convert your car was expensive, it reduced the power, fuel consumption and range yet people did it. Why? It reduced running costs.

The running cost of a "Zero" electric bike at the moment is less than .01c/km or mile according to their website. If I did just a 30km (18.6mile) return commute (could be done by bicycle) 5 days a week that works out to $640/yr for my bike vs max $80/yr for the electric bike. That doesn't include oil, oil filter, air filter etc. nor any rebates, tax breaks or concession for it being a zero emissions vehicle.
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That is all fine and good, but a gasoline engine that suggests mid-grade octane fuel will still run on regular and premium.

With batteries you have to have the same size battery pack, the same voltage, amperage, and connector for all vehicles. If you are doing battery swaps, as you suggest, then you open the door for major liability if any of those battery packs, leaks, catches, fire or runs out of charge and leaves someone stranded. A single laptop battery, when shorted, can come close to the explosive power of a hand grenade. A single fault (or following a wreck) could cause batteries to detonate with no way to tell what is about to happen. While gasoline is flammable, it is not (contrary to what many thing) explosive. Any fault in a swapped out battery pack opens the vendor/service to major lawsuit. This system won't work for legal reasons. If your car catches fire and burns, you don't sue the gas station.

Finally, the environmental argument is moot until someone can show the total impact for battery and electrical production and disposal is less than the impact of using gasoline. The idea of replacing gas-powered vehicles with electric is moot until electric vehicles can match gasoline for practicality outside a major city. Within major cities I think electric is fantastic and helps reduce air pollution in very densely populated areas.
 
hansvonaxion said:
And electric bikes also offer advantages.
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They do and I'm not arguing that. Electric bikes certainly have a market, more so than cars.

bone said:
50 years or racing in classes where 50% of the participants drive 911s as well, so the chances of winning are 1/2

in the races where they actually had to battle, they used mid engined cars as well (917 etc)
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550 Spyder, 904, 906, 907, 908, 910, 914, 917, 934, 935, 936, 924, 944, 956, 959, 961, 962, WSC-95, RS Spyder. Much more than the 911.
 
So I think I'm gonna be taking the SV more or go ATGATT in the Beetle in the next few months - Bumblebee is about to hit 100K on the clock, and erm, I think it might explode or something...
 
The way people drive I'm tempted to go ATGATT even in the X.
 
I have owned this thing for the past month or two. It's been trail use only but I'm getting to work on it once I have a break from classes - I've been so damn busy.
Bike001-1.jpg

I originally bought it because my father and I were moving back to our old home, where I have literally dozens of trails accessable from my street. He convinced me to buy this thing for myself, and then cancelled the move shortly after. So, I decided to put it on eBay. He decided to shield bid for me without me knowing. This is a great gesture and all, except for the fact that he won the auction. So, I've decided that some outside force (or maybe just my dad) requires me to hang on to this thing, so I'll fix it up.
Bike002.jpg

'75 Yamaha DT125. Single cylinder two stroke. It is incredibly fast for a 125, fun little bike. It fires up and runs like a champ. I need to put blinkers on it (or find a loophole), install a new speedometer cable, replace a couple of bulbs and put some mirrors on it, and it will be street legal. B)
 
Blind_Io said:
1.Diesel and various octane ratings of gasoline are readily available.
2.Diesel pumps even have a slightly larger filler so it won't even fit in a gasoline-powered car.
3.LPG and CNG are less common and mostly used by fleet services locally with filling contracts at certain providers, not as viable cross-country vehicles. LPG and CNG are a tiny segment of the industry and not standard.
4.Ethanol blends are also very common and most engines run fine on an Ethanol blend, pure ethanol is another story and less common in most of the US.
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1. Exactly my point. If they can supply so many fuels in so many forms it isn't impossible that they could charge a few different types of batteries.
2. Exactly my point again, they aren't compatible and require different hardware.
3. Not true in Australia. Holden offers LPG-fuelled cars direct from the factory, that's pretty standard. They don't have be viable for cross-country, again, I never said that.
4. I've just been reading Spectre's rants about ethanol destroying engines. Do they run fine or not?




Blind_Io said:
That is all fine and good, but a gasoline engine that suggests mid-grade octane fuel will still run on regular and premium.
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Within the unleaded fuel segment you can usually switch between octane ratings but that doesn't change the fact that they have to store and provide 2-3 different grades of fuel.

Blind_Io said:
1.With batteries you have to have the same size battery pack, the same voltage, amperage, and connector for all vehicles.
2.While gasoline is flammable, it is not (contrary to what many thing) explosive.
3.Any fault in a swapped out battery pack opens the vendor/service to major lawsuit. This system won't work for legal reasons.
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1. No you don't.
2. LPG seems pretty explosive. (first vid that popped up) And petrol fumes can contribute to explosions, or something very similar.
3. Yes, certainly wouldn't work for legal reasons. lol. They are being (or have been) trialled in Japanese taxis.

One minute, 13 seconds. That's how long it took for the whiz-bang battery switcher engineered by Better Place to remove a battery from the undercarriage of its Nissan demonstration SUV and replace it with another. That's faster than either the fastest fast charge or filling it up with regular. You don't even get out of your car! Sweet!
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Blind_Io said:
Finally, the environmental argument is moot
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I never mentioned the environment.
 
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Bubs360 said:
'75 Yamaha DT125. Single cylinder two stroke. It is incredibly fast for a 125, fun little bike. It fires up and runs like a champ. I need to put blinkers on it (or find a loophole), install a new speedometer cable, replace a couple of bulbs and put some mirrors on it, and it will be street legal. B)
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Nice. I've got a '74 DT250 that I've owned for a few years. It's rougher than your's though, I just bought it to bounce off of trees on. I might work on it this fall, make it street legal and possibly modify a few things. It would certainly be easier to park on campus than my VFR.

P1000732.jpg
 
Bubs360 said:
'75 Yamaha DT125. Single cylinder two stroke. It is incredibly fast for a 125, fun little bike. It fires up and runs like a champ. I need to put blinkers on it (or find a loophole), install a new speedometer cable, replace a couple of bulbs and put some mirrors on it, and it will be street legal. B)
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tigger said:
Nice. I've got a '74 DT250 that I've owned for a few years. It's rougher than your's though, I just bought it to bounce off of trees on. I might work on it this fall, make it street legal and possibly modify a few things. It would certainly be easier to park on campus than my VFR.
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Nice, I love the old scramblers.

Good luck on the work, bubs360.
 
Bubs360 said:
I have owned this thing for the past month or two. It's been trail use only but I'm getting to work on it once I have a break from classes - I've been so damn busy.
Bike001-1.jpg
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Looks like a fun little project - if you throw in the towel, I'll gladly take it off your hands!
 
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