The Gun thread

Is holding a revolver with the support hand thumb forward that bad of an idea? I tried it recently and my accuracy improved but my worry is that if I'm not careful I might place my thumb too far forward and expose it to the gasses between the front of the cylinder and the forcing cone.

It's a bad idea for a revolver, for the reason you suspect. The only revolvers you can safely do that on are ones like the Nagants where there is a gas seal between the cylinder and the forcing cone.

The escaping gases in the gap on most revolver are a significant safety hazard for anything close to the gap. They can even start cutting through the top strap on the weapon, so think about what they'd do to your hand.
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The Rob Leatham type thumbs forward grip you are describing is a bad idea on a revolver. A proper revolver grip is one hand over and lower than the other, thumb down. Here's what Jerry Miculek has to say about that: http://www.shootingusa.com/PRO_TIPS/MICULEK2/miculek2.html

Revolvers are not semiautos, semiautos are not revolvers; they require different techniques.
 
If I keep my support hand right on top of my dominant hand, the support thumb extends to maybe half the length of the cylinder. I also tried shooting that way last weekend and it seemed fine. Still, I do see the risk...

Unrelated but impressive:
When the Austrian military announced in 1982 that Glock had been awarded the contract to provide its new advanced field pistol, the news rocked the shooting world and the firearms industry. Glock was known as a producer of field knives, bayonets and entrenching tools, along with a few other military products like machine gun belts. But the company had never produced a firearm of any sort.

What was behind the Austrians? choice of Glock over well-known and highly respected makers? After all, the firms competing on the bid included legends such as H & K, Sig-Sauer, Beretta, Steyr and FN.

The clincher for the Austrian government was the reliability phase of the trials. The requirements called for no more than 20 malfunctions over the first 10,000 rounds fired.

The testers were astounded with the operation of the Glock. It finished the first round of the trials with zero malfunctions. The second phase of the trials involved firing a load that produced twice the designed chamber pressures after the weapon had fired 15,000 rounds, then inspecting the weapon for wear and damage. The Glock finished the trials with a reliability rating of 100 percent. This is the origin of the company?s marketing slogan ?Glock Perfection?.

Since that time, Glock has proven criticism of its ?plastic gun? to be unfounded, and in fact today nearly every maker has a model featuring space age polymers and similar ergonomic design to the Glock. Considered to be the most reliable handgun and with reliability as the main watchword, over 65 percent of law enforcement agencies in the United States are equipped with Glock pistols. During its testing, the Scottsdale Police Department in Arizona fired 5000 rounds with zero malfunctions.

The majority of law enforcement agencies are using the Glock 17 in 9mm, but there are many using the Glock 21 in .45 ACP and the Glock 20 in 10mm Auto. Besides the reliability factor, these agencies often cite the fact that there is no need to unlock a standard safety to fire the weapon. Because of its internal safeties and the trigger safety, all that is needed in an emergency is to draw the handgun and fire it. This saves precious time when seconds count and eliminates one more potential mistake.

There are numerous reasons to consider a Glock, and reliability is only the beginning. The price range for a proven leader cannot be faulted. The polymer construction has proven in fact to be nearly indestructible in actual practice by militaries worldwide. The U.S. Army has shown the gun to fire after being run over by vehicles, buried in dirt and mud and even after mine explosions and bullet strikes. The metal parts use a proprietary process to produce some of the hardest parts available in any firearm, and therefore wear extremely well.

The Glock?s geometry has proven accuracy advantages. This and the lower felt recoil are results of ergonomic design and the low placement of the bore axis. The Glock has the lowest bore axis in relation to the shooter?s hand of any handgun. The result is a highly controllable weapon when it comes to reducing muzzle rise. The polymer used in its construction absorbs recoil and deadens the shock felt by the hand.

For anyone who is looking for a first pistol, a backup, or who needs the most reliable handgun and considering operation over any other requirement, the Glock should be a serious consideration. However, if you need more handgun information or a handgun chart then checkout this.
 
Unfortunately, their ergonomics suck.
I've only shot one briefly and didn't think it was great or terrible. I remember thinking "why all the hype?" Now that I've been reading more about Glocks, I'm starting to want one... Gonna run a box of 9mm through my friend's and then decide if I need to start saving up.

I have a completely irrational fear of a semi-auto slamfiring when I chamber a round at home. Seems like Glock's safe action might be the answer since, as I understand, the striker cannot contact the primer without the trigger being pulled.

Oh, and Glock is one of very few handguns that I can get pre-ban standard cap mags for. And 9mm ammo is cheap.
 
I am afraid you have been drinking the Glock kool-aid.

Firing pins can get stuck forward on any pistol. Striker fired or not - early model Glocks in particular had an ugly tendency to slam-fire - more so than other autopistols because of the way the firing pin was fitted. Later on they changed the design's firing pin to incorporate a firing pin safety more like the Colt 1911 Series 80 firing pin block. Unfortunately, there's a lot of early Glocks still running around out there that haven't been back in for this or the numerous other 'updates' which should really be named 'silent recalls.'

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In fact, the last of the early firing pin 'updates' was to correct a problem where the weapon could spontaneously discharge while not moving or being disturbed at all.

April 1, 1992

Glock, Inc. announces a production change of the firing pin safety system. This new firing pin safety system has been installed in all production Glock pistols since November, 1991. A voluntary upgrade is being offered to maintain the Glock tradition of ensuring that all of our pistols are up to the latest standards in 21st century Glock technology.

Most importantly, the components of the new firing pin safety system are not interchangeable with the components of the old system and Glock will always strive towards maintaining this feature of interchangeability while working to ensure future interchangeability.

The upgraded firing pin safety system consists of: the firing pin, firing pin safety, the extractor, the spring loaded bearing and the trigger bar. The upgraded system is applicable only to Glock pistols with the following serial number ranges :

Glock 17 - alpha prefixes AA - WF
Glock 19 - alpha prefixes through WJ
Glock 20 - alpha prefixes through WW
Glock 21 - alpha prefixes through XL
Glock 22 - alpha prefixes through YA
Glock 23 - alpha prefixes through SK

The upgraded firing pin safety has a new surface finish making it nearly 100% saltwater corrosion resistant. Also, after rigorous and extensive testing, the new system proves to be more durable and has a longer useful life. Here, as always, Glock is working toward maintaining its standard of perfection.

So much for 'Glock Perfection.' In fact, if you send in your first or second gen Glock for service or even inspection, what you will get back from Glock will be your original barrel, frame and slide - everything else will be completely new because they will have replaced all the other internals. Whether you wanted them to or not.

Also, there are other pistols out there just as reliable if not more so than the Glock. What you posted read like a Glock ad; Glocks have several problems as well. Unsupported chambers leading to kabooms in certain calibers is a classic issue still unaddressed. You *cannot* shoot reloads or unjacketed/lead-only rounds in a Glock because of the polygonal rifling. The trigger is meh at best. The older mags were not fully metal lined so they swelled up when loaded and would not drop free of the pistol if there were more than a couple rounds left in the mag. There's more but you get the idea.

Glocks are good combat pistols, but they aren't god pistols and there are many others on the market as good if not better. I have a first-gen Glock 19 (yes, it's been back to the factory repeatedly for all the 'updates') and I like the 30 in particular - but they're not anywhere near what the factory hypes them to be. There's reasons my carry pistol is a Springfield XD45C and *not* a Glock. Starting with the externally visible and tactilely verifiable firing pin/cocking status indicator and grip safety, things Glock doesn't have:

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And continuing on with the much, much better loaded chamber indicator:

XD:
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Glock:
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... and the fact that the trigger is true single action instead of half-single-half-double and of course the aforementioned issue of the Glock grip angle.

As for preban magazines... While my XD doesn't have any pre-bans, there's a lot of pistols that have pre-ban mags available - whether their own or ones that 'happen' to fit them. Smith and Wesson mags are one such common mag, up there with Glock - but both magazine counts are dwarfed by my old friend, the Browning High Power, which has 'high capacity' magazine production going back to 1935. Glock still hasn't caught up with the BHP mag numbers. And, I'd add, the late MkII and MkIII Browning High Powers have an external safety that physically locks the firing pin in place as it engages - in fact, you can't fully engage the safety on those versions unless the firing pin is retracted and in position, so it indicates the position of the firing pin as well. This is something the Glock doesn't have; many pistol designs also incorporate equally positive firing pin safeties so that what you fear is highly unlikely to happen with them - less likely than Glock, even!

Again, Glocks are a good combat pistol, but they're not the zenith of pistol development and both older and newer pistols do many or even all things better than the Glock. The Glock is the Camry of pistols, really.

Edit: Re the XD's grip safety and firing pin safety, this description of it from an ARFcomer:
The firing pin safety is a passive firing pin block that prevents the forward motion of the firing pin unless the trigger is fully depressed. With the trigger pulled, the passive firing pin block is disengaged allowing the firing pin to move forward past the breach face.

If the grip safety isn't depressed, the trigger doesn't function (in fact, the trigger won't move unless you have the grip safety depressed - Spectre). So, you have to grip the pistol properly AND put your finger on the trigger AND pull the trigger fully to fire the weapon. Between the grip safety and the trigger safety, it's impossible to get an XD to accidentally discharge holstering it or dropping it.

Glocks have no firing pin position indicator and no grip safety to prevent accidental trigger movement. On an XD, if you are worried about a slamfire, you can look at or touch the back of the weapon to determine if the firing pin is forward, neutral or back before pulling the slide to chamber a round. This is something you can also do on most hammer fired pistols to one degree or another - you can tell where the firing pin is on a 1911 or BHP by looking at the back of the firing pin which is visible at the back of the slide.
 
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Awesome post, thank you. It's mighty hard to find a Springfield in MA as they were never actually sold here. If I want more than 10 rounds, the mags must be from before 1994, which limits me to Glocks, Sigs, and the Beretta. The Hi-Power doesn't seem to offer any advantages over my 1911, aside from a few extra 9mm rounds. For the Glock, I'd be looking for a gen 3 G19.

Oh, and who cares about the loaded chamber indicator? Just follow basic safety rules.
 
Awesome post, thank you. It's mighty hard to find a Springfield in MA as they were never actually sold here. If I want more than 10 rounds, the mags must be from before 1994, which limits me to Glocks, Sigs, and the Beretta. The Hi-Power doesn't seem to offer any advantages over my 1911, aside from a few extra 9mm rounds. For the Glock, I'd be looking for a gen 3 G19.

There are other weapons that use Glock, Sig, Smith and Wesson and Beretta mags that aren't Glocks, Sigs, Smiths or Berettas, you know. There are also pre-1994 military contract mags for the BHP that hold 15-17 rounds and even some pre-ban civilian 20 rounders.

The Gen 3's aren't perfect either, having been silent recalled repeatedly as well. Many of the recent production Gen 3 and 4 G19s have had ejector problems or even repeated failure to eject issues. For that matter, other than a few more 9mm rounds, the G19 doesn't exactly have a lot of advantages over your 1911 either - and the trigger sure isn't one of them.

Oh, and who cares about the loaded chamber indicator? Just follow basic safety rules.

1. Loaded Chamber Indicators (aka LCI) are a nice thing to have. It's *really* nice if it's something easy to check and obvious, unlike the Glock one that's not exactly highly visible or even checkable by brushing your hand over the top surface of the weapon. You can see the LCI of an XD just by getting a sight picture and tilting the front up slightly or lowering the weapon (still on target) just below your sight line. The Glock must be turned on its side or otherwise taken off target.
2. The real primary function of an LCI is not to remind you that you forgot to unload your weapon in violation of basic safety rules but that you forgot to chamber a round or that the weapon did not pick up a round! Especially important in the case of (say) a nightstand or under-counter pistol where the weapon may have been cleaned and reloaded but left with an empty chamber for whatever reason. It's really rather embarrassing to try to defend yourself with a weapon having an empty chamber. And in an emergency, you can't just pull the slide again to make sure because you'd be tossing away what might be a critically important (to you) round.
3. LCIs are also valuable at the range. If your pistol suddenly stops with the slide forward, the LCI can save you from injury and embarrassment; the LCI will tell you if the weapon failed to pick up a round or worse if the weapon DID pick up a round but failed to eject it because it was a squib, because it was otherwise defective, or because of a hangfire or slow primer. No fun to reach up to rack the slide to see what's going on only to have the slow primer finally go off and cause the slide to come back into your reaching hand. With an LCI, you can immediately tell whether it is safe to lower the weapon or if you need to continue holding it pointing downrange for a reasonable period of time.

- - - Updated - - -

Also: http://www.armslist.com/posts/29379...pringfield-xd9sc-subcompact-in-massachusetts-

http://www.armslist.com/posts/28757...om-springfield-xd-9-and-xd-9-subcompact-in-ma
 
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Level, you forgot the CZ75. There are some pre-94 trade ins from europe and Israel available. Also, IIRC the full size Walther P99 uses the mags from the P88 Compact.
 
Level, you forgot the CZ75. There are some pre-94 trade ins from europe and Israel available. Also, IIRC the full size Walther P99 uses the mags from the P88 Compact.

Yeah, there's umpteen wondernines that use the CZ's mags... mostly because they're based in part or in full on the CZ. There's also the Ruger pistols and their 'high cap' mags. Tons of those things around.
 
Finally made some progress at skeet today. Usually I try to go for half (12-13) and I'm satisfied. Today I got 14, followed by 19. So close to breaking 20! I'll take it for my first season.

Shot a Tavor and loved it! Way better (and way more expensive) than an AR. Tavor felt very natural to point and with a red dot sight I hit 5/5 at 100 yards. Not bad for my first time every shooting it, never mind the fact that I rarely shoot rifles out to 100.

Also shot a Glock 19 and was very pleasantly surprised. It points completely different from a 1911 but it's certainly something that most people could get used to. Way lighter than the steel .45 and, of course, 9mm is easier to shoot. Trigger was a bit long, especially compared to the 1911, but certainly not bad.
 
If you want a Saiga, go buy it now. The Treasury Department is going to be introducing a new round of trade sanctions against Russia.
 
If you want a Saiga, go buy it now. The Treasury Department is going to be introducing a new round of trade sanctions against Russia.

Been waiting for that for the past few years. The good news is that I *think* the guys looking to make a US-built Saiga are about ready to go.
 
I shoot skeet with a guy that uses a Saiga 12. It looks ridiculous and has caused several hilarious scenes ("Hey! Hey! Are you crazy?!?! You can't use an AK here!") but he does very well with it, consistently scoring over 20.

Occasional Russian build quality issues aside, the Saiga 12 is a great shotgun. They're taking over 3-gun shotgun divisions for sure and they do show up at skeet facilities. I love mine. :)
 
The Gun thread

Buzzword-completeness: achieved.

Sig and HK are both pretty bad about that, yeah.

More about the Saiga 12: take it to the range and it *never* fails to attract a crowd. It's blast to shoot; my personal favorite of all the pieces I own.
 
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Anybody know if Molot is part of Kalashnikov Concern or not? I haven't been able to find a definite answer.
 
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