The Gun thread

ScarFace88 said:
Anybody know if Molot is part of Kalashnikov Concern or not? I haven't been able to find a definite answer.
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Yup, they are. http://www.kalashnikovconcern.com/about/ lists:

Today the plant is named after the legendary designer Mikhail Kalashnikov, who until his death he worked in the enterprise. NGO "Izhmash" was renamed JSC "Concern" Kalashnikov "August 12, 2013. In the long term concern unite "Izhevsk Mechanical Plant" Vyatskie Polyansky Machine-Building Plant "Molot" THREADS "Progress" KBAL them. L.N.Koshkina and other enterprises rifle and ammunition industry. The emergence of concern is the next step in creating a vertically integrated holding small arms in Russia.
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More concerningly, this means there's about to be a shortage of 5.45AK and 7.62AK rounds. Russia was the major supplier of cheap AK ammo in the US. There are zero US factories set up to make those calibers. While there are many other (usually former Warsaw Pact) countries that can make AK ammo cheap, they're not generally set up for it (they've been moving to more NATO rounds lately) and it will take time for them to change over or change schedules - ammo is made in batches.

Not to sound superior or anything, but that was always one of my major concerns with the AK calibers - the ammunition is imported only and all too easy to interdict.
 
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Random thought of the week:
Yet another coworker in my department is getting his firearms license. Yesterday he was asking me what he should buy, keeping in mind that he is really not into guns at all and so he doesn't want to spend a lot of money. I suggested a used Maverick 88 12g pump-action shotgun, which I found locally for ~$175. Great for home defense, very simple, very reliable, and can be used for skeet/trap. He liked the idea of trying out clay shooting sports, especially since many local clubs allow non-members on certain days, so that's another expense he doesn't have to face. Love live the scatter-gun!
 
Also, 12-gauges are fun. :D
 
LeVeL said:
Random thought of the week:
Yet another coworker in my department is getting his firearms license. Yesterday he was asking me what he should buy, keeping in mind that he is really not into guns at all and so he doesn't want to spend a lot of money. I suggested a used Maverick 88 12g pump-action shotgun, which I found locally for ~$175. Great for home defense, very simple, very reliable, and can be used for skeet/trap. He liked the idea of trying out clay shooting sports, especially since many local clubs allow non-members on certain days, so that's another expense he doesn't have to face. Love live the scatter-gun!
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The 88 isn't a bad low budget choice, being a stripped down and simplified-for-production 500 made in Eagle Pass, Texas (though as noted Mossberg is moving production of the 500 here as well). The 500's top tang safety is replaced by a crossbolt one, the metal trigger guard is a plastic one, the only available stocks are polymer (no big deal) and the forearm is notably harder to change. Most 500 accessories will fit it. The only issue I have with it for home defense is that it only holds 5+1 2.75" shells and you can't extend the magazine with aftermarket parts.

Edit: LOL, just realized you'd linked to the Wiki article which basically says the same thing.

I'm not partial to cross-bolt safeties, I like the Mossberg top-tang setup much better. But it's undeniable that a cross-bolt works.

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Redliner said:
Also, 12-gauges are fun. :D
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And unlike any other kind of arm, you can *actually* buy shotgun shells off the shelf at 2 in the morning at Walmart. The 100 packs of 12 and 20 gauge bird shot (and sometimes 16) are the only ammo not kept under lock and key - mostly because bird hunting starts in the wee hours of the morning.
 
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Spectre said:
The only issue I have with it for home defense is that it only holds 5+1 2.75" shells and you can't extend the magazine with aftermarket parts...
I'm not partial to cross-bolt safeties, I like the Mossberg top-tang setup much better. But it's undeniable that a cross-bolt works.
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Agree on the tang safety preference (one of several reasons I prefer the 500 over the 870). As for the 5+1 setup - if you can't defend your home with 6 shotgun loads, then you're in deep trouble. At that point, there are probably several highly-determined perps and chances are its not just your average burglary; put down the shotgun and go get the AR because you're in for an exciting night!
 
LeVeL said:
Agree on the tang safety preference (one of several reasons I prefer the 500 over the 870). As for the 5+1 setup - if you can't defend your home with 6 shotgun loads, then you're in deep trouble. At that point, there are probably several highly-determined perps and chances are its not just your average burglary; put down the shotgun and go get the AR because you're in for an exciting night!
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The AR that MA doesn't want you to have? :p
 
The Gun thread

The shotgun is going to be a much more effective weapon at urban and even suburban home defense ranges than the AR. It's why I have my Saiga 12 - go ahead, bring your entire crew to raid my place, I've got 12 shotgun rounds and a fast reload for 12 more. Actually several fast reloads. :p

Also, if it's bad enough that a 12 gauge isn't going to settle matters, a mouse caliber Barbie gun probably isn't going to be much better IMHO so I'd be reaching for the FAL instead. :p
 
A 12-gauge should be plenty 99% of the time. For the other 1%, I wouldn't say no to 30-round 5.56 (or, for that matter, 7.62) mags. There was a story last year about six armed intruders breaking into a family home here in MA. Chances are the head of the household was involved in something but still, six armed intruders is a whole lot to deal with and the odds are stacked very much against the homeowner. The good thing about the shotgun option is that it can be topped off on the fly without being taken out of commission.
 
The Gun thread

Well, remember, the rule of thumb for personal arms is minimum two rounds per assailant - even Vasiliy Zaitsev or Carlos Hathcock could not guarantee a one round stop.

There are also documented cases of assailants (usually high on drugs) not only surviving a close range 12 gauge 00 buck hit but pressing on. Haven't heard of any continuing on after two or three.

There is no such thing as a man portable weapon that can guarantee a one shot stop. Not even my beloved 12 gauge or even the mighty .50BMG. Recently departed famous actor James Garner got shot by a .50 BMG during his combat tour of Korea and he obviously lived.
 
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LeVeL said:
There's no way someone can take a center-mass hit with 00 buckshot and not go down. If they are grazed, maybe, but even some deranged lunatic on bath salts will be knocked flat down with a center-mass hit.

And hey, there's always slugs :D
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Erm, you need to review your physics. If the assailant were to be knocked down from kinetic energy transfer, the shooter would also be knocked down from recoil. For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction (short of some tricky technologies like recoilless rifles and huge muzzle brakes.) What causes the target to fall down is muscle, nervous and skeletal system damage as well as shock.

In any case, while it certainly isn't common, even full house 12ga 00 buck or slugs can fail to stop, even from close range. Jim Cirillo documented a surprising number of incidents where the NYPD Stakeout Unit engaged people with 00 buck and slugs and they failed to stop said persons. Stephen Wenger (I disagree with him on unrelated personal issues and therefore won't link his site to avoid promoting him or his book) notes an incident that I heard about when I was living in LA in his book Defensive Use Of Firearms:

In the early 1990?s four B.A.T.F. agents were involved in a shootout with a South Central Los Angeles gang member. When the shooting was over the gang-banger had 34 entry wounds and 27 exit wounds from 00 buckshot pellets, 9mm bullets and 12 gauge shotgun slugs. He was removed from the gene pool only because the last shotgun blast of the engagement destroyed his genitals. Last I heard, he was still alive in a Federal prison, albeit getting rid of his urine through a bag worn on his belly.
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Here is the LA Times's brief coverage of the incident: http://articles.latimes.com/1991-06-19/local/me-837_1_atf-agent

One more time: There is no such thing as a guaranteed one shot stop with a man portable weapon. To assume otherwise is dangerous.
 
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Also, people don't have to be on drugs to shake off the effects of gunfire hits. They just have to be very, very, very determined. I commend the 1986 Miami FBI shootout to your attention. Michael Platt was hit 9 times and he was still able to move around and fight shockingly effectively for more than 4 minutes before a badly wounded FBI agent managed to shoot him three more times at point blank range. Even then, he was just barely incapacitated; when the ambulance crews got around to checking him several minutes later, his heart was still going and his pupils were still responsive. Here is a reasonably well written and well illustrated analysis of the event: http://www.thegunzone.com/11april86.html

By the way, Platt was *not* on drugs or alcohol or anything else. He pressed on through sheer mental effort. Something to think about - and far from a freak incident.

Even the .357 Magnum is known to have failures to stop with full house 158gr rounds.

The first handgun failure-to-stop (FTS) I experienced was with a 4-inch .357 Magnum and 158 gr. JHPs. My adversary panicked upon realizing he had been hit in the chest, abandoned his weapon and ran a full sixty yards in the opposite direction before he became incapacitated, collapsed and died.
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This is not taking into consideration headshots, right? :unsure:
 
Spectre said:
One more time: There is no such thing as a guaranteed one shot stop with a man portable weapon. To assume otherwise is dangerous.
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300px-Soldier_with_Bazooka_M1.jpg


You said weapon, not gun... ;)
 
The Gun thread

Redliner said:
This is not taking into consideration headshots, right? :unsure:
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Head shots with .357 and .45 have also failed to stop. There is a famous incident where a cop put a .45 round into a perp's head at close range and the perp advanced for several steps before sitting down and complaining of a headache. The individual had a sloping cranial dome and the round penetrated the skin but glanced off the skull. Not the first or only time that has happened, and the individual demonstrably could have pressed on if he had been more determined. The guy survived.

DanRoM said:
300px-Soldier_with_Bazooka_M1.jpg


You said weapon, not gun... ;)
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Deliberately so. As US troops found out, even bazookas and other rocket launchers may not produce one shot stops even with direct hits. Specifically, the M1 was not terribly accurate even at short range and missing was more than a distinct possibility; further, the impact fuse of the M1's projectile sometimes would not trigger if it hit flesh.

Before someone brings it up - yes, this includes flamethrowers too. Setting a charging Japanese on fire wasn't always enough to stop them.

Even with the march of technology, there still is no man portable weapon that can generate a 100% guaranteed one shot stop of an assailant. People in Iraq and Afghanistan have not only survived direct hits from MAAWS recoilless rifles but continued to fight.

Remember, stopping is different than just killing - you can fire a lethal shot but if the recipient doesn't die fast enough he can still kill you before he goes. Stopping does not have to be lethal - and per stats, most gunfire actually isn't as there's a pretty good chance the target won't die if given medical attention.

Interestingly, the Taser electroshock weapon actually has a better chance of stopping someone than a firearm does on a per hit basis. The disadvantage is that if it doesn't work on an individual the first time, it won't work at all for any follow up shots. And the percentage of the population that has nervous systems that simply ignore the Taser may be significant.

Maybe someday we'll invent a phaser or something else out of science fiction that can guarantee a 100% first shot stop. That day is not today and tomorrow isn't looking good either. :p :mrgreen:
 
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