The Gun thread

Spectre

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That's a good choice in that class. Inexpensive as well.

Drawbacks are that it can be unpleasant to shoot and IMHO the caliber is a bit marginal. Ammo choice and shot placement are going to be exceedingly critical for that little gun. You must now go to the range and fire at least 500 rounds to break the gun in and make sure you can hit what you're shooting at with the gun - the sights are very rudimentary, which is fine at most of the ranges you're going to want to use the weapon at (contact range or under the Tueller radius of 7 yards), but can be a problem if you need to hit someone out beyond 21 feet. This is common to the class of pocket pistols and there's really nothing better coming stock from a factory on the market now.

On that subject, since the P3's sights aren't that good and cannot really be upgraded, may I suggest this?

lg430.jpg


It's a laser sight for your Kel-Tec. Since the sights on pocket pistols like that can be difficult to use, this will help your accuracy at distance. I normally do not suggest lasers on pistols, but pocket pistols like that are an exception.
 
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Polygon

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Thanks for the suggestion. Yeah, the sights aren't very good. That would be a good idea. It's too bad they're almost as much as the gun. Once I get used to the gun I'll have to grab one along with some extra magazines.

Just out of curiosity, why don't you normally like laser sights?
 

Spectre

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Laser sights have their place (especially for those who have visual problems and simply cannot see standard sights) but in general they're not a great idea on a self defense weapon. Professional operators (police, special forces, regular military units, etc.) have experimented with them over the years and more or less have discarded them as a main line sighting system. When used, they're almost always an auxiliary sight.

Here's some of the list of objections to laser sights, some of which do not apply to civilian use but many of which do:

1. Murphy's Law; laser sights are electrical devices. They rely on a bunch of electrical parts to all function properly. Sometimes they don't - and guess when that is the most likely to happen? If you guessed "when you really really needed it to work," you win a left handed M?bius wrench! Standard sights (which you don't really have on the P3-AT) can be equipped with tritium inserts, if one desires an illuminated sight. Since Murphy seems to be unable to affect radioactive halflives/decay, you don't have to worry about it.
2. Alignment. It is far more possible for a laser sight to get knocked out of alignment (either through inadvertent abuse or even through the recoil forces battering the laser diode) than it is for standard fixed sights. This is less of a concern now than it was several years ago as now many vendors use hardened/toughened diodes and sturdier materials to construct their devices (and that is reflected in the price), but it is still a concern. In the case of the P3-AT, that unit is extremely sturdy and even if it comes out of alignment a little, the error induced will not matter at any range you are likely to actually use the pistol.
3. Lasers work both ways. They illuminate your target... and then they draw a nice colored line back to you if there's any particulates or vapor in the air. Not exactly a huge concern for civilians interested in personal defense.
4. Interoperability. If you suddenly have to pick up a strange pistol to defend your life and it doesn't have a laser when you're used to having one there, that will slow you down and might be a problem.

In the case of the P3-AT, you don't have standard sights as an option and the ones you have on the pistol are useless in low light situations - so you have nothing to lose by fitting a quality laser sight to the weapon and everything to gain.

I have a similar albeit much smaller pocket pistol as a backup, a Baby Browning .25 Auto. Its sights are pretty much nonexistent as it's intended as a "get-off-me" gun. Unfortunately nobody makes a laser for it that doesn't suck.

Bottom line for me - laser sights are fine as a primary sighting system for a pocket pistol, not fine for anything that can actually mount regular tritium sights - though it is fine to have one as an auxiliary sight.
 
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Svempa

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The only time we use the laser sights on our weapons is at night using an IR-beam in combiantion with NVG.

On another note. I'm planning on picking up a 1911 type gun in .45 but there as you are aware of z gazillion different manufacturers. Is there anything particular you would recommend. I've mostly looked at the ones from Springfield Armory, Para-Ordnance and Kimber. I would be ordering form the big country on the other side of the even bigger lake. So I'd like some input regarding, quality, price, performance and reliability. Gun would be used mostly for IPSC.
 

Spectre

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The only time we use the laser sights on our weapons is at night using an IR-beam in combiantion with NVG.

Pretty much the same with US forces, save that these days they often don't have to do that as apparently the "red dot" sights being issued now are NVG compatible.

A couple of active-duty Marines recently back from Iraq advised me that they kept their IR lasers on their rifles even after converting to the new sights because they were useful as pointers to indicate things to other squad members.

On another note. I'm planning on picking up a 1911 type gun in .45 but there as you are aware of z gazillion different manufacturers. Is there anything particular you would recommend. I've mostly looked at the ones from Springfield Armory, Para-Ordnance and Kimber. I would be ordering form the big country on the other side of the even bigger lake. So I'd like some input regarding, quality, price, performance and reliability. Gun would be used mostly for IPSC.

Do you seek a good base gun that is good value for money which you will have a smith build up? Or are you looking for an out of the box race gun? Which IPSC class or classes do you intend to compete in? Your answers will determine who you should talk to - well, that and your budget.

I will note that an awful lot of the local and top national shooters seem to be using more and more STI products these days, many starting their custom racegun builds off the STI 2011 double-stack platform. I know little else about them other than they're not as good a value on the low end as Springfield and that they are quality firearms. http://www.stiguns.com/

That said, the current reigning IPSC world champion (for the past few years), Eric Grauffel of France, shoots a Tanfoglio 1911 which is, more or less, made in Italy - so you might not have to send across the big pond for one.
 
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Svempa

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Pretty much the same with US forces, save that these days they often don't have to do that as apparently the "red dot" sights being issued now are NVG compatible.

A couple of active-duty Marines recently back from Iraq advised me that they kept their IR lasers on their rifles even after converting to the new sights because they were useful as pointers to indicate things to other squad members.
Basically the same here. Our NVGs have mounting brackets so you can put them on the Picatinny-rail just behind the red dot. Works good! As for the laserbeam we use it as a backup, for MOUT and for pointing at stuff as you said.

Do you seek a good base gun that is good value for money which you will have a smith build up? Or are you looking for an out of the box race gun? Which IPSC class or classes do you intend to compete in? Your answers will determine who you should talk to - well, that and your budget.

I will note that an awful lot of the local and top national shooters seem to be using more and more STI products these days, many starting their custom racegun builds off the STI 2011 double-stack platform. I know little else about them other than they're not as good a value on the low end as Springfield and that they are quality firearms. http://www.stiguns.com/

That said, the current reigning IPSC world champion (for the past few years), Eric Grauffel of France, shoots a Tanfoglio 1911 which is, more or less, made in Italy - so you might not have to send across the big pond for one.
The class I'm going for is production. I'm just looking at this as a way to become a better shooter with my service gun and have a 1911 as my private firearm that I can take to the range any day and have fun with. So no fancy race gun needed. A reliable base gun with good value for money is what I'm after.

Budget is a bit hard to say. There aren't that many 1911's around here. Most people here use Glocks, Sig Sauer and CZ. Therefore I don't really know what prices are demanded for a good base 1911. But I was expecting something in the region of 900$. Maybe you can give me some pointers.
 
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Spectre

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What's your standard sidearm? The reason I ask is because IIRC the current IPSC champion in the production class is shooting a CZ SP01.

If you simply want a reliable 1911-class firearm that you can take to the range, there is no better option than the Springfield Armory Loaded series in terms of value and performance for money. Kimber's had QC problems out the arse of late and they want way too much money for what they have. Likewise Colt. Para-Ords are just plain out of the value running.

A decent Loaded model here is between $750-1000 depending on options. However, you will need to check what your local dealers can get because exporting weapons out of the US is a royal PITA unless you are a registered international arms dealer.
 
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Svempa

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Thanks for the advice. I'll definetly check with my dealer what a SA Loaded shipped with taxes and all that crap would cost me. What about their entry models GI .45 and Mil-Spec? Or the bit more expensive Operator? I suppose there are also quite a few used 1911 lying around at different dealers or do you strongly recommend picking up a new one?

Our standard sidearm is the Glock 17.
 
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Peter3hg

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You do know that is an air pistol target? An air rifle target has 5 on the same size card.

10mtarget.jpg


I get my new gun today, but I shan't go into details after air guns were banished from this thread.
 

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You do know that is an air pistol target? An air rifle target has 5 on the same size card.

10mtarget.jpg


I get my new gun today, but I shan't go into details after air guns were banished from this thread.

Sorry for posting in this thread. My response is in the proper airgun thread.
 

Spectre

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Thanks for the advice. I'll definetly check with my dealer what a SA Loaded shipped with taxes and all that crap would cost me. What about their entry models GI .45 and Mil-Spec? Or the bit more expensive Operator? I suppose there are also quite a few used 1911 lying around at different dealers or do you strongly recommend picking up a new one?

Our standard sidearm is the Glock 17.

The GI and Mil-Spec are a bit too basic to be used in IPSC production - they are set to the looser max-reliability clearances and specs, so they're not quite as accurate as their other models. They can be made so but you're looking at gunsmith time to do that.

The Operator is built to the same tighter tolerances as the Loaded, but has the Picatinny rail on the bottom. On the other hand, you are apparently looking for a 1911 for sporting reasons, not for self-defense (tell me if I am wrong), so the Operator would be needless added expense over the Loaded.

I would think that the best one for "casual" IPSC use would be the Trophy Match, but it's a bit out of your price range at $1079 dealer cost. On the other hand, the Trophy Match can shoot better than 99% of the people can operate it, so it's got a lot of room for people to grow.

The Loaded model, which is more of a generalist, is about $800 retail - but it isn't as specialized for target use and can be used for self defense. On the other hand, it doesn't come with some of the features one would want in the more competitve IPSC classes. Still, it is unmatched value for money in the 1911 world.

Also, have you considered simply obtaining one of the target model Glocks and using it? Transitioning back and forth between a 1911 and a Glock isn't the easiest thing in the world and instinctive skills may not transfer like you'd think.

Whatever you decide, unless you're planning on doing a full buildup, I suggest you buy a new pistol as you can then break it in for maximum accuracy as you see fit. There's nothing wrong with a used pistol for self defense, but in the highly competitive world of IPSC shooting, every erg of performance you can get without additional expense is a plus.
 
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Svempa

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I'm not being all that competetive about IPSC so the Loaded sounds about right from what you're telling me.

I'll be doing most competions with my service Glock but I thought it'd interesting to try another gun aswell. Also I wouldn't have to stop by the armory if I on a Saturday afternoon decide to go to the range. Thanks so much for your advice. You helped me alot.
 

Eunos_Cosmo

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I really want a wood furniture FN Fal...

guns_006.jpg


edit: is the gun pictured a G3 not a Fal? Came up as a FAL on a GIS :dunno:
 

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Does anyone here use or have any experience of crossover sights? I'm right handed but very left eye dominant and the eyesight out of my right eye is far poorer than my left eye. Now I have a decent gun, it seems stupid to compromise on my eyesight.
Unfortunately all the solutions on the market seem rather inelegant and expensive.
The two options appear to be rails from Centra which moves both the fore and rearsight to the left, and a prism system from Gehmann. The Centra solution is about ?200 and the Gehmann is nearer ?300 (and it may not work with my existing rearsight).
Any opinions/experiences gratefully received. I'm going away for a week tomorrow morning but I will reply/+ rep when I get back.

Centra

19908110-5.jpg


Gehmann

597-2.jpg
 

Eunos_Cosmo

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Wow that looks complicated! :lol:

Have you tried shooting lefty?
 

Spectre

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I really want a wood furniture FN Fal...

guns_006.jpg


edit: is the gun pictured a G3 not a Fal? Came up as a FAL on a GIS :dunno:

As someone else commented, nope, not a FAL.

These are wood-stocked FALs:

http://img224.imageshack.**/img224/844/falm1congo152andersrugleftyf6.jpg

confnfalwoodfurn.jpg


DSC00796.jpg


http://img224.imageshack.**/img224/844/falm1congo152andersrugleftyf6.jpg


I'm hoping to pick up a heavy-barrel FAL in the next month or so. It will have wood furniture, and you are welcome to it. FYI, FAL parts kits are $300 or less these days and MGS in Fort Worth has FAL receivers you can assemble the kits on for $300.
 
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Eunos_Cosmo

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So I could essentially build a FAL for $600?
 

Spectre

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Yup. The local FAL-heads have free build parties every few months.
 
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