The Gun thread

[Finagle]

What say you, Spectre? I finally got my first piece. 24 years old and still looks as good as new. Reliable as hell, I hear. Next, Sig P226.

 

[JakeRadden]

I want guns : (
I suppose if I want it to become a reality I should get a job so I can get certified... Not that I can have one on-campus.

 

[Spectre]

What say you, Spectre? I finally got my first piece. 24 years old and still looks as good as new. Reliable as hell, I hear. Next, Sig P226.

Mark II's are good guns, quite reliable. Good buy.

I want guns : (
I suppose if I want it to become a reality I should get a job so I can get certified... Not that I can have one on-campus.

Chicago bans all guns unless you are rich, famous, connected or all the above.

 

[Finagle]

Great to hear. Can you please give me a quick top 5 9mm gun list? Will buy something early next year when I get some cash together.

Springfield XD
CZ maybe?
Sig P226 ?
H&K USP (elite?)

 

[Spectre]

The problem with 9mm is that there are so many good ones out there that it really comes down to which fits your hands best. I can give you my personal top 5 list, but they'll be just personal preference and inseparable in terms of quality/accuracy, etc.

Edit: I could give reasons for my preferences, of course... Also, I prefer single-action automatics, so that eliminates quite a few guns for me.

 

[Finagle]

Well I don't want to take up too much of your time by asking you to write a huge wall of text which might or might not have an influence on my decision. But if you can list your fav 5, maybe with short short descirptions why they are your top 5, that would be great. Are you partial to 45ACP? Sadly that caliber is too strong for me.


Thanks.

 

[Spectre]

Aw, you don't want the tsunami of text? How disappointing.

re: .45ACP - I prefer having something that I can hit with, then get the largest caliber that system comes in to maximize effectiveness.

Here's the list. They're all single-action 9mm autos:

1. Browning High Power GP35 and clones. Easy to shoot, made for a billion years, preferred sidearm of many special forces and armies over the years. My personal favorite defensive pistol - accurate, reliable, sturdy and inexpensive. Downsides - best in 9mm and unless you remove the trigger safety the trigger may not be the best. Carried one for years, if I was told that I had to select only one pistol to have for the rest of my life to protect myself I would choose a BHP.
2. Springfield XD. Like a Browning High Power, but in polymer and can hold more rounds. Balance is about the same. Can be had in many calibers and comes in many sizes. Lighter weight than the BHP. Downsides: Relatively recent introduction means that parts and accessories aren't as widely available as the BHP; likewise support and service. A hair less accurate than most Browning High Powers but well within acceptable levels for a defensive or fun pistol. My current carry pistol as the XD points like a BHP for me, but fires the far more effective .45 ACP round.
3. CZ75-series with single action trigger module and clones (including the EAA Witness Match). A product improved BHP with minor modifications and updates. Downsides: Often double action, often heavier than the BHP, not quite as many parts or magazines available though still widespread. Single action module is usually a drop in upgrade. The EAA Witness Match is a single action CZ-clone that's been tuned and accurized.
4. 1911 and clones in 9mm. We've already discussed the 1911, so I don't think I need to go into why this gun is on the list.
5. SIG 210. Stupendously accurate, wonderful trigger, pleasant to shoot. Downside: Large, holds few rounds for the size, stupendously expensive ($3000 USD to start... used.)
Honorable mention: HK P7. Weird gun, nice to shoot, great balance, startlingly accurate, compact, rather expensive and no support to speak of.

 

[Finagle]

Ha, the wall of text warning is for your benefit.


1. Old Browning is old. Some meme fun .I like it tbh, but it isn't the easiest gun to find. Here's one. Disassembly looks easy as hell.
2. I like this SO much. Really. Up until now I wasnt really sure about it, but now. Wow.
3. ?e?ka Zbrojovka 75 is a pretty popular gun here.
4. Any particular manufacturer? There are a gazillion variants.
5. Out of the question, a 210-6 is pricey, pricey.

It really is a very tough decision. I'm quite partial to the P226, tbh. Sig has such a good reputation. But that XD looks fantastic. At 240lbs
I'm a pretty burly guy so I want a decent gun, something that will fit my hands perfectly. The XDm with its' thick grips looks awesome.

 

[Spectre]

Remember, there's the XD and the XDm, and they're pretty distinct from each other.

I find it strange that you can't find a High Power or clone nearby. Entirely aside from the FN guns (built in both Belgium and Portugal), your neighbors the Hungarians make a pretty good inexpensive clone called the FEG PJK-9HP. They also made others, but they're not true clones, being double action. Avoid the one with the vent rib sight, too - I don't know what they were thinking with that.

Your other EU neighbors a few countries over, the Bulgarians, made a modernized and reinforced clone of the High Power called the Arcus. Same action, but a bit more rugged and (usually) takes the same magazines. See: http://www.gunblast.com/RKCampbell_Arcus.htm

There's also the Argentine FM-produced licensed copies, but I wouldn't expect many of those to have wandered over to the vicinity of Slovenia. Then again, you never know; I saw an old pre-WW1 Mauser broomhandle complete with the shoulder stock/holster attachment sitting side by side with a nearly-useless but stupidly rare Gyrojet rocket pistol running around in video of the Yugoslav post-breakup wars, so anything's possible.

Not surprised about the CZ-75 being popular there. It's been popular here, too - even before the collapse of the Iron Curtain. And God alone knows just how many clones and reworks of the CZ-75 there are running around out there.

As for the 1911... if you're having problems with getting High Powers, I wonder how much luck you'd have getting a 1911 there. I do know that Tanfoglio of Italy (discussed upthread) is making some nice ones, so you might have luck trying to find one of those there. There's a ton of US manufacturers, and pretty much none of them suck at this point. Some offer more features or value for money, of course.

Not surprised about the 210 price; I did mention they're stupidly expensive here, wouldn't expect them to be cheaper there.


SIG 22X/23X series guns are, as you noted, nice and they're high quality/accuracy pieces. My issue with the SIG line is that they invariably use heavy recoil springs so that the slide can be difficult to operate if slick or if you are injured. That can be a bit of a showstopper. Plus, with few exceptions, they're all double-action. I intensely dislike double action.

Re: H&K: Really good guns, but usually they want extortionate money for what little you get from them. The USPs are nice pistols, but for less than half the price of a USP, you can get a Glock or an XD that will do everything you will need a pistol to do (sometimes better than the USP). Basically, at this point you are paying twice what the actual pistol is worth just to get the H&K name on the slide. I tend to avoid them in general.

I'm surprised that you found the .45 ACP to be too stout for you; what gun did you attempt to fire it out of?

 

[Finagle]

Yeah, I meant the XDm. I think it looks great. Would have to import one though. A friend made a call to the factory a few weeks ago and they said there isn't enough interest from any of our gun dealers. Shame. As for the 45ACP, I have no idea which gun. Some revolver. And it's not really that it's too strong [I've shot a .500 round too] but I'm trying to gradually progress towards more powerful calibers. I'm on .22 ATM. And I got my weight a tad wrong, not 240, I'm 225ish.

I can probably get any gun I would want. Just have to go through a few of my contacts. Gun dealers and other affectionados. I mainly use eGun because their prices can be great. I just spoke with a friend of mine who will let me test his CZ75. Found a 1911 here. I've seen a few variants but every one I have seen had a very high price. What about new Browings, Standard and Mark III? At the moment the following guns are on my short list: CZ75 SP-01, Springfield XDm, H&K Elite, Browning Standard and the SIG P226.

P.S. Why the couble action hate? Does it make you feel like you're using a toy?


This gun buying business is addictive. Only wish I had more cash.

 

[Spectre]

That's the disadvantage of a revolver, it passes all the recoil on to the user. I've found the .45ACP to be unpleasant to shoot in most revolvers as well. Try it again in an automatic and see what you think.

The new Browning/FN guns are just fine. The SP-01 has a slide that is difficult to get purchase on and operate, thanks to the short exposed height and the stiff recoil spring. The full-length frame also eliminates any chance of pinch-checking or alternately racking the slide that way.

As for double action... Chuck Taylor (a US firearms trainer and expert) has this to say about it (and I agree with him on this issue):

Yes, safety is important, too, but that's part of mechanical reliability. The single-action (SA) self-loader is without question easier to use quickly because it is meant to be carried in Condition One (loaded, cocked and locked). The oft-repeated claim that it is inherently unsafe because the safety doesn't block the hammer is just so much drivel, as are claims that it requires special training and armorer support. A quick look into history discloses that many legendary weapons -- such as the M-1 Garand, Beretta BM-59 and M-14, AR-10, M-16 rifles and .30 caliber M-1 carbine, for example -- utilize this same concept but no one claims them to be unsafe. As far as training and armorer support are concerned, the SA auto has thus far enjoyed a worldwide military career than has spanned over eight decades. Obviously, if it required special treatment or was unsafe, et al, this could not have been the case.

Double-action (DA) pistols were created with the idea of keeping the hammer down on a loaded chamber, allowing the gun to be cocked and subsequently fired by a pull of the trigger, then reverting to standard SA operation for subsequent shots. In theory, this allows it to be kept ready for action with less preparation and operator "fussing around," often the cause of accidental discharges (ADs). One had only to present the weapon, aim, pull the trigger and...boom! -- he was in business.

However, the use of two different operational systems makes such weapons more complex and, often, less mechanically reliable than SA autos. More importantly, from a "human engineering" standpoint, the long, heavy DA trigger pull required to initiate that first shot is tough to handle quickly under stress without loss of first-shot accuracy. As well, that many DA designs require the firer to shift his trigger finger from one position on the trigger to another as the weapon reverts to SA operation proved to be both time-consuming and annoying.

Failing to realize just how quickly defensive handgun encounters tend to take place, many shooters mistakenly think that the DA auto is better because they assume it to be "safer." Thus, they ignore the fact that it is considerably slower and more difficult to operate under stress.

Then there's the double-action only auto. Again, Chuck Taylor:

In the last few years, we have also seen what is called "double-action-only" -- "DAO," for short. This means simply that although the gun is loaded the same way as a conventional DA auto, it operates only via the trigger-cocking method, exactly like the old DA revolver. Why did DAO come to exist? Well, pretty much to simplify the operation of the weapon. Instead of the gun reverting from DA to SA after the first shot, a process often necessitating a substantial shift in trigger finger position (a difficult thing to accomplish in the fast time-frames of deadly encounters), it operates solely in the DA mode.

Which means you get that long slow grind of a trigger pull every single shot instead of just the first time.

Single action triggers are generally lighter, shorter travel, and faster than double action.

 

[Finagle]

Can't say I disagree. I have a license that allows me to carry the gun but won't be using it for self defense, though. BTW, what's pinch-checking?


I decided how my purchases will go: 1st Springfield XDm, 2nd Sig P226, 3rd Browning Standard or Mark III. I dropped the H&K Elite because I think it looks silly (yeah, I'm that superficial :]) and the CZ because I can't have everything. That's over a couple of years though. I hope to scrap enough cash together to get the XDm early next year. Any comments? There's a a match tomorrow, I'll try to attend. Probably won't have trouble finding someone with 45ACP there. Will give it a try.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

MGS in Ft Worth has a police issue/surplus sig 226, in 9mm, for only like $400 or so. I reallllly want it.

 

[Spectre]

Can't say I disagree. I have a license that allows me to carry the gun but won't be using it for self defense, though. BTW, what's pinch-checking?

It's an alternate method of checking to see if an autoloader has one in the chamber if for some reason your hand cannot get purchase on the slide. It is called this because you put your thumb on the trigger guard and your index finger on the front of the slide (below and away from the bore in case something goes horribly wrong), then push them together in a pinching motion until the chamber opens and you can see whether there's a round loaded.

Like so:

This does not work on anything with a fixed or full-length guide rod (where the rod sticks out from the front of the slide when the slide is locked back). Which means that you can't actually do this on an XD. I simply had one of my XDs on me and didn't want to go dig out a BHP, so I took the pic to show you the position.

Since you have a thumb in the trigger guard, it is less safe a technique than racking the slide - but if you're having trouble operating the side, you have to check it somehow...

I decided how my purchases will go: 1st Springfield XDm, 2nd Sig P226, 3rd Browning Standard or Mark III. I dropped the H&K Elite because I think it looks silly (yeah, I'm that superficial :]) and the CZ because I can't have everything. That's over a couple of years though. I hope to scrap enough cash together to get the XDm early next year. Any comments? There's a a match tomorrow, I'll try to attend. Probably won't have trouble finding someone with 45ACP there. Will give it a try.

Don't really have any objections. Oh, you might want to search for just "FN High Power" - FN makes a line of them without the Browning moniker. Also, good luck at the match.

MGS in Ft Worth has a police issue/surplus sig 226, in 9mm, for only like $400 or so. I reallllly want it.

Heh, you and your Swiss guns.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Heh, you and your Swiss guns.

Like watches, the swiss are just good at making guns. I like all my guns to have 'to hell and back' reliability.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

I've located a Fal with a broken front sight for $800. Should I go for it? Also, how is a G3 compared to a fal? They seem to be a bit cheaper.

 

[Spectre]

G3s are less reliable, more nose heavy, have cheaper mags and are sometimes more accurate. On the other hand, their controls can be awkward and parts can be a pain.

As for the broken front sight, how's it broken? A replacement front sight/gas block is usually cheap, it's just often a bit difficult to remove.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

He said it wobbles when you fire the weapon.

 

[JohnnyRacer]

Wobbles?

 

[Spectre]

He said it wobbles when you fire the weapon.

Wobbles? Is he talking about the front sight center 'pin', or the entire gas block/front sight assembly?

Also, is it a metric or inch pattern FAL? It's possible to stick the wrong pattern pins in the gas block, at which point it'll wobble.