The Gun thread

TC

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The video basically said that the P320 passed industry and government drop tests, but apparently those tests drop the gun on the side or on the muzzle. When the gun is dropped on the back, where the hammer would be, the weight of the trigger carries enough momentum that it keeps moving after hitting the ground, moving enough to release the hammer. When they tested a version of the P320 with a flat trigger, that weighs less, the gun would not discharge. The trigger didn't have enough mass/momentum to move far enough to release the hammer. They stated that they tested several versions of the same gun, in different calibers, with the same results.
 

RdKetchup

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Yeah, that's what I understood listening to the audio from that video.

Coincidentally, earlier this week I saw a similar video of a modified Glock firing under similar circumstances. Keyword here of course is "modified".

 

LeVeL

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Modified Glocks tend to be a recipe for disaster because kitchen gunsmiths think they can bubba the gun with some fancy new parts and it'll magically work. As Ivan Chesnokov would no doubt put it, Glock is fine, leave alone. The only things a Glock might need are new sights and extended slide and mag releases; don't f with the trigger.
 

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Modified Glocks tend to be a recipe for disaster because kitchen gunsmiths think they can bubba the gun with some fancy new parts and it'll magically work. As Ivan Chesnokov would no doubt put it, Glock is fine, leave alone. The only things a Glock might need are new sights and extended slide and mag releases; don't f with the trigger.

Considering that the trigger on most Glocks isn't all that great at best and like stirring coal at worst, the trigger is one of the things that people *most* want to change...
 

Spectre

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I have no issue with it. Not a lot of travel, noticeable reset - it's not like an M&P garbage stock trigger or a Walther with really vague reset. It's no 1911 or SA wheel gun but I've never thought it to be bad.

Considering I mostly prefer shooting single action guns? Yeah, it isn't very good. Even the worst Browning High Power I've ever shot, with the nastiest, badly machined magazine safety shoe still connected, is better than the best factory Glock trigger. And let's not get started on the absolute garbage that is the NY1 or NY2 triggers and connectors factory-fitted to far too many Glocks.
 
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LeVeL

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Considering I mostly prefer shooting single action guns? Yeah, it isn't very good. Even the worst Browning High Power I've ever shot, with the nastiest, badly machined magazine safety shoe still connected, is better than the best factory Glock trigger.
Yep, I did mention single action as being better. Well, when it comes to triggers, at least - otherwise I tend to pass on them.


And let's not get started on the absolute garbage that is the NY1 or NY2 triggers and connectors factory-fitted to far too many Glocks.
It's a $2 part that comes on police surplus guns. So what? It's not Glock's fault that a certain (huge) police department went down the heavy trigger path.
 

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Four men with handguns broke into a house in my town at night. Among other valuables they took marijuana, which makes me suspect that this wasn't random. Still, makes me question keeping a handgun as my go-to home defense gun. I can't think of a way to lock up a long gun while still having very quick access to it though.
 

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You need to lock it up for legal storage requirements or for safety reasons?

If for legal storage requirements, would keeping it trigger locked with a combination lock with a single digit off the proper combination be ok? That's what some people do in Canukistan.
 

LeVeL

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You need to lock it up for legal storage requirements or for safety reasons?
Mostly legal, since I don't have kids, roommates, or unwelcomed house guests. See below.


If for legal storage requirements, would keeping it trigger locked with a combination lock with a single digit off the proper combination be ok? That's what some people do in Canukistan.
That's basically what I do with my handgun - lock box with the combination a digit off - when I'm at home. If I leave, I spin all the numbers around.
 

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Mostly legal, since I don't have kids, roommates, or unwelcomed house guests. See below.



That's basically what I do with my handgun - lock box with the combination a digit off - when I'm at home. If I leave, I spin all the numbers around.

An alternative would be a combination cable lock through the action, and have another cable run through that cable lock and something solid when you leave the house.

That way, the gun cannot be easily removed, and cannot be fired, and you still have the possibility to keep the combination scrambled or one-off.
 

Spectre

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It's a $2 part that comes on police surplus guns. So what? It's not Glock's fault that a certain (huge) police department went down the heavy trigger path.

It is, however, Glock's fault that for a couple years after they ran a campaign to try to convince people that the NY1 trigger was a valuable safety adjunct and it should be ordered if people were concerned about the lack of an external safety lever. They were mostly just trying to pay off the tooling because they grossly underpriced the modification to the NYPD.

Should also be mentioned that the NY trigger itself is actually more reliable than the original trigger as it's less likely to have spring failure. The hot/most reliable setup is the NY trigger but with the stock/3.5lb connector to return it to the original pull weight. However, Glock does not offer this as a factory build option. Most Glock armorers in free states (not NE gun control states) that I know of tend to agree on this.
 

Spectre

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Four men with handguns broke into a house in my town at night. Among other valuables they took marijuana, which makes me suspect that this wasn't random. Still, makes me question keeping a handgun as my go-to home defense gun. I can't think of a way to lock up a long gun while still having very quick access to it though.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: This is just like the "I won't ever short stroke a pump shotgun" thing. Did you think home-invading assailants only came in "unarmed/no guns" configuration and kung-fu-movie "one at a time" style? In reality, often they *don't.* There's a reason this is considered a truism: "A handgun is what you use to fight your way to the long gun you should have had in the first place." :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

As for locking up a long arm while retaining quick access, there are no shortage of options for doing so. Considering that the classic American primary home defense weapon is actually the shotgun (not the handgun), safe storage laws ended up creating a whole industry around the need to secure such long arms while retaining rapid access capabilities. There are various quick access lockers (separate from actual gun safes), tethered locks, locking racks, locking wall mounts... no end of options.

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AR_Closet-2.jpg


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LeVeL

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:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: This is just like the "I won't ever short stroke a pump shotgun" thing. Did you think home-invading assailants only came in "unarmed/no guns" configuration and kung-fu-movie "one at a time" style? In reality, often they *don't.* There's a reason this is considered a truism: "A handgun is what you use to fight your way to the long gun you should have had in the first place." :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Well, multiple armed assailants breaking in at night when they figure I must be home is highly unlikely, since I'm not a drug dealer. I'm also more proficient with a handgun than a long gun. Plus 16 rounds with spare mags next to the gun isn't exactly a poor choice. Anyways, my biggest concern is space - I'm not convinced I can effectively maneuver around some tight corners in my house with a long gun. My thinking has always been that if there's a bump in the night I need to investigate, I'll do so; if I actually believe someone is inside, I'd rather hunker down in the bedroom - for the former, a handgun is perfect; for the latter, I'm thinking a long gun might be wise. Let's face it, if I got my hands on my AR, g-d help whoever is coming through that bedroom door.

Of course this all applies only if my passive security measures all fail.
 

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Well, multiple armed assailants breaking in at night when they figure I must be home is highly unlikely, since I'm not a drug dealer.

This is actually an increasingly common group offense now, and not just against drug dealers. Need I remind you of the Cheshire home invasion of a decade ago? Non-drug dealer victims attacked by multiple firearm-toting assailants. That was just one of a seriously growing crime trend - armed home invasions are apparently the popular thing with some criminals now.

I'm also more proficient with a handgun than a long gun.
Sounds like a personal problem. You should fix that.

Plus 16 rounds with spare mags next to the gun isn't exactly a poor choice. Anyways, my biggest concern is space - I'm not convinced I can effectively maneuver around some tight corners in my house with a long gun.

You do know that non-ARs actually have folding stock options so they can be more easily maneuvered in tight quarters, right?
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DSCN2845-920x575.jpg

Makes this job a lot easier and is one of the reasons why a short shotgun with a folded or even removed stock (pistol grip only) is still sometimes called a "cruiser" configuration - the short, folding/no stock shotgun was developed to be carried in a police cruiser to be used in just such situations. Many of the early commercially produced ones didn't even have sights as their main intended use was to be fired from the hip or a close retention hold with the top of the weapon nowhere near your line of sight. That's the kind of close quarters fighting they were intended for; a well trained operator can be surprisingly accurate at house clearing ranges with hip fire on a shotgun. Unfortunately, due to bad media portrayals, that fact gave mistaken credence to the already-existing myth that all you have to to is wave a shotgun in the general direction of an assailant and pull the trigger.

Should you come across an assailant while clearing the house, a long arm is easier to retain and as its barrel is fixed an attacker grabbing the barrel cannot push the weapon out of battery thus rendering it non-functional. One retention technique (of many) if someone grabs your long arm's barrel (especially on a shotgun) is to simply pull the trigger and let the muzzle blast do the job of getting them to release the firearm for you. There's other related nastiness that you can do if the shotgun is a semiauto and you therefore don't have to manually cycle the action.

My thinking has always been that if there's a bump in the night I need to investigate, I'll do so; if I actually believe someone is inside, I'd rather hunker down in the bedroom - for the former, a handgun is perfect; for the latter, I'm thinking a long gun might be wise. Let's face it, if I got my hands on my AR, g-d help whoever is coming through that bedroom door.

And whoever is 300 yards or more beyond the muzzle when you pull the trigger. :p That said, you have the right general idea - house clearing is only to be done if you absolutely have to, it is better to defend your bedroom or other central point (i.e., set up an ambush) than to go to your potential assailants. On the other hand, sometimes there isn't really a choice.

It's just a shame you have the details wrong IMHO. :D
 
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LeVeL

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Pistol grip only shotgun are a silly idea - any reasonable defensive load packs a hell of a punch in a 12ga. Folding stocks in general are gray in this damn state.

Regarding retention: unless you're coming around corners with your arms fully extended, I don't think it would be a big issue if you have a handgun.

I doubt that a 5.56 would penetrate several interior and an exterior walls and then travel 300 yards. In fact, over penetration is a bigger concern with slugs and 00 buckshot than with 5.56/.223
 

Spectre

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Pistol grip only shotgun are a silly idea - any reasonable defensive load packs a hell of a punch in a 12ga. Folding stocks in general are gray in this damn state.

They're not quite silly, only a very specialized weapon. Can be extremely useful in the right hands under the right circumstances.

Regarding retention: unless you're coming around corners with your arms fully extended, I don't think it would be a big issue if you have a handgun.

A handgun is easier to lose and easier to push off target. Accurate shot placement with hip fire is a lot more difficult with a handgun. It's easier to put a handgun out of action by grabbing the slide or sticking the web of your hand between the hammer and the gun on a wheelgun.

You really need to talk to the guys that do this sort of thing for a living - like SWAT officers in free states or active duty Marine infantry. I have several friends in various departments (and the Corps) that I keep in touch with so I can learn what works and what's just Hollywood BS.

I doubt that a 5.56 would penetrate several interior and an exterior walls and then travel 300 yards. In fact, over penetration is a bigger concern with slugs and 00 buckshot than with 5.56/.223

There are these things called "windows." Projectiles tend to go through them pretty easily. A rifle bullet going through a house window still retains most of its 300-400 yard effective range. A 00 Buck shot cloud is still going to be limited to an effective range of ~100 yards, assuming a level and not elevated minimum legal length barrel in both cases. If you're talking about maximum range period (as in how far down range you have to worry about property damage, perhaps not lethally injuring someone not otherwise involved in the shooting incident), the M855 5.56 round has a maximum travel distance of about two miles. 00 Buck's comparable distance is just about 700 yards.

Remember, you are legally responsible for every bullet or pellet that comes out of the muzzle of your weapon.
 
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LeVeL

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To be honest, I'm more likely to end up keeping a shotgun with #4 buck in it in the bedroom than an AR. This has little to do with effectiveness (I'd rather have 30 rounds on semi-auto than 5 in a pump) and more to do with a) the setup I envision for my particular situation favors the shotgun"s design and construction; b) in my state a defensive shotgun would look significantly better in court; c) since the gun is more likely to get stolen from the master bedroom (even if locked up) than from my hidden safe, I'd rather they try to get the scattergun than the AR.


I have several friends in various departments (and the Corps) that I keep in touch with so I can learn what works and what's just Hollywood BS.
There's a compliment, if I ever heard one :rolleyes:
 
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