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Spectre

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The Gun thread

Someone forgot how they tested the 1911. They dropped it straight onto its hammer repeatedly from greater heights than what it took to set the Sig 320 off. The final candidate design that became the 1911A0 simply refused to go off even when one tester hurled it down off a platform.

This is *probably* going to open up the Joint Service Pistol competition again.

I'm happy that Dallas PD's first instincts were correct; I also hope that whatever idiot in the DPD brass that was 'assured' there wasn't a problem gets fired or demoted because with all the problems that department has right now, leadership that blithely accepts vendor reassurances that duty weapons can't possibly have a problem when rank and file officers are demonstrating that there really is one is not acceptable.

Problems like this are why if my pistol doesn't have an external safety lever, it better goddamn have a grip safety.
 
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Spectre

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How about a grip zone?

Rather have that than have to apply skateboard tape to the supposed "Perfection" because the stupid engineers made the plastic too slick.

345cvls.jpg



Related P320 piece: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/08/11/sig-p320-problems-questions/

Someone has apparently already been injured by a dropped P320 going off: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/...d-police-officer-shot-dropped-holstered-p320/
 
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LeVeL

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Ah yes, the classic "attack others instead of defending mine". Since we're apparently taking my joke seriously, the Glock you posted doesn't have any tape applied to it - it's got stippling. Most Glocks do not because the grip is fine, at least with rounds that aren't full-power 10mm. I'm just surprised that you actually like manual safeties.
 

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The Gun thread

Ah yes, the classic "attack others instead of defending mine". Since we're apparently taking my joke seriously, the Glock you posted doesn't have any tape applied to it - it's got stippling. Most Glocks do not because the grip is fine, at least with rounds that aren't full-power 10mm. I'm just surprised that you actually like manual safeties.

Look closely. It's skateboard tape, not stippling.

It's also not that I like manual safety devices in as much as I have seen far too many accidents or the aftermath of accidents as a result of mishandling or simple misfortune when the only safety is a little plastic shoe on the trigger. The joke about 'Glock leg' would not exist if it didn't have some basis in fact - aside from idiots like the classic 'Glock foaty' government agent shooting himself in a classroom, there have been some really unfortunate Glock shooters who didn't do anything wrong with their pistol handling but who had clothing get in the way on reholster, snag the trigger and BANG.

A grip safety like on the 1911 or XD is 'transparent' in use, deactivates 'automatically' when gripping the weapon anywhere even vaguely properly and if using proper holstering techniques, render clothes or holster bits getting caught on the trigger unable to discharge the weapon. No additional action is required to deactivate it, you don't have to remember it and it's every bit as fast into action as a pistol that lacks it.

Something else about the XD's grip safety - when engaged, the safety not only locks the striker in place *and disconnects the trigger*, it also locks the slide in place. It simply is not possible to have the kind of accidental discharge as the P320 had unless your XD is broken or has been tampered with.

Edit: It's worth mentioning that the first two generations of Glocks would not pass drop tests either. In the famous 1991 DEA 'frisbee' drop test, Glocks not only had the slide come off but several of them actually discharged or discharged and self-disassembled. The first Glocks that wouldn't do that were the 3rd gens; this is where the infamous 'Six Part Product Upgrade' program came from. Glocks don't have a grip safety and therefore had no way to lock the slide in place; what had happened was that in the course of the test, the slide would open, going out of battery. Then the weapon would land and the forces involved would shove the firing pin forward with enough force to set off the chambered round, sometimes without the breech locked in battery. Oops.
 
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RdKetchup

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Spectre

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On this subject, a Winnipeg cop got shot in the leg when is Glock discharged accidentally last week.

From what I've heard it seems like the gun broke, with the slide separating, resulting in a discharge.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/winnip...holstered-gun-outside-grocery-store-1.3537920

I was just reading about that - multiple other sources are reporting the pistol as being a Glock 35. Here's one: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/officer-bullet-glock-1.4252937

Spoke with a Dallas PD contact this afternoon - due to ongoing issues with Glocks going bang when unintended (due to both mishandling and unexplained discharges like the one in Winnipeg) no officer that joined DPD after 2001 is allowed to carry a Glock on duty. The more senior officers are 'grandfathered' in because their older Glocks were once department approved; DPD is loath to make officers buy new firearms (if they don't use city-issued pistols). Standard issue city-owned pistol for Dallas is a 9mm Sig P226 firing Federal Hydra-shoks though officers may opt to buy their own pistol off an approved list of models.

The video upthread has made its way around DPD HQ and there's a whole lot of unhappy (well, even more unhappy than usual for the troubled department) officers over the P320 safety issue. I didn't manage to get the name of the idiot responsible for blindly accepting Sig's assurances only for the YouTube video to prove the lie but I would assume he or she is distinctly unpopular right about now...
 
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Spectre

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Train your officers properly and you won't have an issue with a Glock.

As noted, there was some mishandling and that's been accounted for. On the other hand, there have also been unexplained discharges that officer training or handling issues could not account for. One of them was on video - an officer was retrieving his pistol from a locker on his way out of the jail, the pistol fell, the officer (to his credit) did *not* try to catch the pistol and the Glock went off anyway. A Gen2 Model 17, as I recall.

Please enlighten me as to exactly how training would have prevented that Glock from discharging.
 
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RdKetchup

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In the case of the Winnipeg incident (and I think the Calgary incident before that), the discharge happened while in the holster, not while holstering or de-holstering. So how is that a training issue?
 

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In the case of the Winnipeg incident (and I think the Calgary incident before that), the discharge happened while in the holster, not while holstering or de-holstering. So how is that a training issue?

There have been a number of incidents of Glocks going off in holsters without the carrier in question having their hands on the weapon. Some of them have been due to defective holsters, some due to defective factory parts (so much for Perfection) and some unexplained but documented to not be handling, holster or foreign object inside trigger guard related.

As noted, I too would like Level to answer how these are training issues.
 
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LeVeL

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Every "accidental" discharge from a Glock I've ever heard of was either the user fingering the trigger guard when they weren't supposed to or something getting caught in the trigger guard, such as a draw string or crappy holster. A Glock has safety mechanisms specifically to prevent it from being able to go off unless the trigger is pulled - if it's just sitting there, it literally cannot fire.


Straight from the link Spectre posted:
The officer, who had his gun in his holster, opened the car door with one hand while holding his lunch with the other. As the officer sat down, the gun went off, shooting him in the lower leg.
I'm willing to bet that it's a holster issue and either the gun came out of the holster and something engaged the trigger, or a thumb flap wasn't fastened and got caught in the trigger guard.

Spectre, you mentioned the first and second gen Glocks not being drop-safe: source? Because Glocks specifically have a drop safety.
 

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Every "accidental" discharge from a Glock I've ever heard of was either the user fingering the trigger guard when they weren't supposed to or something getting caught in the trigger guard, such as a draw string or crappy holster. A Glock has safety mechanisms specifically to prevent it from being able to go off unless the trigger is pulled - if it's just sitting there, it literally cannot fire.


Straight from the link Spectre posted:

I'm willing to bet that it's a holster issue and either the gun came out of the holster and something engaged the trigger, or a thumb flap wasn't fastened and got caught in the trigger guard.

Spectre, you mentioned the first and second gen Glocks not being drop-safe: source? Because Glocks specifically have a drop safety.

The problem was that the first and second gens would slam fire when dropped, which caused Glock to issue the 1992 'Six Part Product Upgrade'. There have been other problem child Glocks as well.

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/archive/index.php/t-71111.html

http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/upgrade-faq.html was one original reference with all the cites, pictures and such. However, the site has gone down in the last year, so you'll have to get a look at it through archive.org when Archive gets their database server working again. Has references to the DEA 'frisbee' test and more.

- - - Updated - - -

Edit: There was also the 1993 G19 "Upgrade":
" 1993, G19 Upgrade

Glock Model 19, 9mm Luger caliber, requires an upgrade for all pistols.

These pistols have the potential for an UNINTENTIONAL DISCHARGE of a cartridge with the action open.

The Glock model 19 pistol slide has a bottom protrusion, whose function is to push cartridges from the top of the magazine into the chamber. When the pistol is jammed in a double feed situation, the slide protrusion can come in contact with the primer of the jammed cartridge and cause UNINTENTIONAL DISCHARGE while the action is open."

Whoops.

This stuff is easy to find, but here's one compilation here; https://www.facebook.com/AdvancedGlock/posts/829722713733597

Now, gun manufacturers aren't immune to fuckups in design or production, but when a company goes around billing themselves and their products as "Perfection" - and their fanbois actually seem to *believe* that - well, they get held to the standard they're advertising. Unsurprisingly, they come up short. Also unsurprisingly, Glock has accrued a spotty at best record of customer service, too.

You may note that all of these "Updates" would be called "recalls" by any other reputable firearms company. This is because 1. Glock doesn't want to be forced to spend the money that a real recall under CPSC standards would involve and 2. So they can say they've never had a factory recall and this means that their product is "perfection."

Springfield and IM Metal aren't perfect by any stretch, but they don't claim to be and at least they don't do the above stupid shit, deal with problems quickly and generally call recalls what they actually are. The XD series is also in general a better design overall.

- - - Updated - - -

And a little related reading: http://g36mf.blogspot.com/
 
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LeVeL

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Your evidence of Glocks a) not being drop-safe and b) suddenly going off in cops' holsters and lockers is to post company-issued upgrade notices from a quarter of a century ago that had nothing to do with the gun being drop-safe or going off while not being handled? I'm also not impressed with that website that doesn't work anymore :lol: Care to try again and actually back up your assertions?

- - - Updated - - -

And a little related reading: http://g36mf.blogspot.com/
That is NOT related! Stay on topic, please.
 

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Your evidence of Glocks a) not being drop-safe and b) suddenly going off in cops' holsters and lockers is to post company-issued upgrade notices from a quarter of a century ago that had nothing to do with the gun being drop-safe or going off while not being handled? I'm also not impressed with that website that doesn't work anymore :lol: Care to try again and actually back up your assertions?

Unfortunately for you, archive.org got their servers back up: http://web.archive.org/web/20120512163645/http://www.thegunzone.com/glock/upgrade-faq.html

There has been some question over the years about what actually led to the six-part "Product Upgrade" announced by Glock, and many, buttressed by information developed by both the writer during his tenure as Industry Editor of Gun Week, and the "Industry Insider" column by the Editor of American Handgunner, concluded that it was directly related to "the AD heard 'round the world5" which occurred on 2 January 1992 to a Suffolk County (NY) Police Officer.

Glock 19 That infamous event took place as the officer was preparing for his late duty shift. Alone in his home, he removed his unloaded service issue Model 19 Glock from its safe-keeping location, inserted a magazine, and attempted to chamber a round in the conventional method. As he released the slide, the handgun discharged inside his bedroom. Fortunately, as he had been observant of Firearms Safety Rule #2, there was no personal injury, but the officer was clearly shaken. He contacted the Suffolk County P.D. Range and requested that an armorer be available to inspect his service pistol. (As with most modern law enforcement agencies, all rounds discharged off the range must be accounted for, and if it could not be shown that the gun had experienced a mechanical malfunction, the officer might very well have been subjected to retraining, a departmental review, and an investigation with Internal Affairs personnel questioning his neighbors about whether they had observed any "problems" in the officer's marriage or had sensed a substance abuse situation.)

Although the Firearms Training Section personnel immediately concluded that the officer had disobeyed Firearms Safety Rule #3 (and Glock Commandment #1: "off-target, off-trigger!"), the man was adamant that all safety procedures had been observed during the loading sequence, and that he was not going to go on duty without his Model 19 having been thoroughly checked. The Section Sergeant authorized an hour's overtime for one of the armorers to stay on station to inspect the Model 19. When the MOS arrived the armorer was so certain that the errant discharge had been "operator error," that when he test-fired the pistol, he didn't even go onto the range, choosing instead to step outside the range HQ building and perform an administrative arming of the Model 19. Reminding the officer of the "keep a straight finger" dictum, the armorer inserted a magazine, and racked the slide.

The Glock discharged, sending a 124-grain +P JHP into the ground behind the building.

Quickly moving to the range proper, the validated officer watched as the armorer thrice more attempted to arm the Glock. Twice more it "slam-fired."

On the third and final attempt, it lapsed into a three-shot burst. (As has been oft-observed by the author, full-auto fire is always exciting, but an event best planned for? spontaneity is good in many things, not, however, in firearms!)

Plenty of cites at the archived site. Even the non-rabid fans on GlockTalk admit that this was a problem with the early Glocks.
 
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LeVeL

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Sorry.

This snapshot cannot be displayed due to an internal error.
Searching for parts of the text you posted, brings up just three results, all on forums - not sure what the original source is or if its single example of anecdotal evidence is backed up by, well, anything. Yes, Glock has issued upgrade notices before - twenty five years ago!

Even if the slam-fire story is true, none of what you've posted supports your allegation that Glocks were ever not drop safe or how a brand new WPD Glock would suddenly go off for no reason. Even if they had issues, back before I was in kindergarten, they've all been immediately fixed free of charge and cannot be blamed for any "accidents" that happened recently.

- - - Updated - - -

BTW, want to discuss the recall that Springfield had just a few years ago because guns would fire when simply chambering a round?
 

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Searching for parts of the text you posted, brings up just three results, all on forums - not sure what the original source is or if its single example of anecdotal evidence is backed up by, well, anything. Yes, Glock has issued upgrade notices before - twenty five years ago!

Link is working for me. You can also enter the original TGZ URL into archive.org's search box and look at the multiple copies they have archived there.

Even if the slam-fire story is true, none of what you've posted supports your allegation that Glocks were ever not drop safe or how a brand new WPD Glock would suddenly go off for no reason. Even if they had issues, back before I was in kindergarten, they've all been immediately fixed free of charge and cannot be blamed for any "accidents" that happened recently.

Not so immediately fixed. Glock often refuses to admit a problem, as you can see from that G36 owner's page I linked, until they're absolutely forced to recognize an issue. They have a history of deflecting, denigrating or plain out ignoring problems from anyone who isn't a police department - which does bear on recent issues. Nobody is saying that the old slamfire issues caused this problem - but it was just the first in a long history of Glock not being perfection. Like, say, the slides falling off the 17M. Or the recent corporate stupidity on their part about the Gen 4 problems.

The primary issue is that the dual recoil spring was so powerful that it was causing jams. As stated above, Glock initially denied the issue saying that owners were using poor quality ammunition that caused the jams. However, roughly two years after the release of the Gen 4 Glock admitted that there was a problem and issued a recall on the recoil spring. This issue has been the primary complaint specific to the Glock 19 Gen 4.

Wooo, two years to admit there was a problem, that's immediately fixing it alright! Oh, and they fixed it not with a recall but a 'voluntary exchange program': https://us.glock.com/customer-service/recoil-spring-exchange

As for the drop safety issues, they are a matter of public record with the DEA tests. They got booted from the 2003 INS procurement when some of the same frame rail problems that caused the DEA test guns to break apart and discharge reared their heads again - though this time the INS bid guns just broke instead of discharging.

For more recent Glock customer service fuckery, you have only to look at the Glock 42 FTF/double feed debacles where Glock spent years denying there was a problem.

- - - Updated - - -

BTW, want to discuss the recall that Springfield had just a few years ago because guns would fire when simply chambering a round?

Sure. Springfield said "Whoops, we fucked up, we're going to recall all the XD-S pistols and give you some free stuff as an apology. We're even going to *call* it a recall." If you bothered to read my post, I said they weren't perfect. But then, they don't run around with this as their company tag line.

g1.jpg


That's not arrogant or anything...
 
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Spectre

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Eh. I don't hate them, I just detest the fanboys who think it's a god gun instead of just a reasonably good gun with quirks. Like any other design, Glocks have both advantages and deficiencies. Glock USA's customer service is known to be pretty bad at times too, and their handling of major issues sometimes is more than a bit VW-dieselghazi-ish. I do actually own a Glock 19, an early second gen that's been back for all the "upgrade programs" (that anyone else would call a recall), but it just lives in the safe. It isn't perfection, and neither is any other Glock (or indeed any stock or near stock pistol) I've ever handled or fired.

I do find it highly amusing that Glock 'perfection' is having to catch up with the rest of the industry with their Gen 5 and its new features. What this appears to be is is the combination of the recent -M contract guns and their MHS bid submission gun (all of which were forcing Glock to catch up with the competition) with some omissions.

IMG_1710.jpg


IMG_1711.jpg


Flared mag well - been available on many polymer and other pistols before. Controversial as this makes the pistol harder to conceal and draw from concealment, but open carry/duty pistol users often want this.

Glock 'Marksman' Barrel - Yeah, this is a step away from their prior polygonal barrels and has a smaller crown (from what I've read) producing better accuracy... like the XD and others have been doing for years.

Removed finger grooves - lol, welcome back to the second gen Glock frame. The idea of finger grooves isn't necessarily bad, but Glock's execution of them sure was. The US military tried out the 19 for the MHS trials and one of the first things they told Glock was to dump their finger grooves.

IMG_1708.jpg


Gen5 magazine extended floorplate 'for faster magazine changes' - You mean like most other polymer pistols have had since before the XD and metal pistols have had since at least the 1911???

Also, LOL at how Glock advertises their continued failure and inability to make an ambidextrous magazine release by promoting the 'switchability' of their single-sided mag release.

But wait, we have an ambi slide release now! - Yeah, almost nobody uses those or fits them to pistols in the aftermarket and the Glock doctrine always was (correctly) "rack the slide, don't use the release" - the release was for administrative slide closure only.

nDLC finish - This is the only interesting part of the changes to me. Tenifer was indeed an advance at the time; I'll be waiting to see how nDLC fares in comparison to the other finishes and coatings out there at current.

Article discussing this, the comments are great: http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/08/25/glock-gen5/
 
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