The Gun thread

LeVeL;n3545437 said:
Glock 21 and all of it's caliber conversions:
​​​
  • 9mm
  • 9x25 Dillon
  • .​​​​38 Super
  • .357sig
  • .40S&W
  • .40 Super
  • 10mm
  • ​​​​​​.400 Corbon
  • .45 ACP
  • .45 Super
  • .460 Rowland
  • .50 GI
:hmm:
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That's about half of what the 1911 can do, so not really that impressive.
 
Considering that:
  1. "1911" refers to a whole bunch of different platforms, many quite different from what JMB created, while I'm talking about a very specific model;
  2. The 1911 is a finicky unreliable low-capacity relic;
  3. The same 1911 cannot do all of those calibers, you'd be talking about a whole new gun...
Yeah I'd say that's pretty impressive.

Source: had a 1911. Emphasis on "had".
 
LeVeL;n3545453 said:
Considering that:
  1. "1911" refers to a whole bunch of different platforms, many quite different from what JMB created, while I'm talking about a very specific model;
  2. The 1911 is a finicky unreliable low-capacity relic;
  3. The same 1911 cannot do all of those calibers, you'd be talking about a whole new gun...
Yeah I'd say that's pretty impressive.

Source: had a 1911. Emphasis on "had".
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For somebody that likes to complain about people that paint with a really wide brush, you seem to be painting with a really wide brush.
 
GRtak;n3545470 said:
For somebody that likes to complain about people that paint with a really wide brush, you seem to be painting with a really wide brush.
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^ This. My father-in-law's over 100 year old 1911 has never had a failure to feed, failure to fire, and only 1 stove pipe that I can remember in hundreds of rounds I've personally fired over the years. It's pretty accurate too.

You can say it has a disadvantage with being single stack and it being a bit heavy if you're used to polymer pistols yes but that's about it. Absolutely everything else considered I will take a 1911 easily over any polymer pistol because of my personal experience. :) That last bit is the crux of it all. Both sides need to acknowledge that as tools they are equally good at going bang bang. And like any tool everyone's personal mileage may vary based on experience.
 
JCE;n3545472 said:
^ This. My father-in-law's over 100 year old 1911 has never had a failure to feed, failure to fire, and only 1 stove pipe that I can remember in hundreds of rounds I've personally fired over the years. It's pretty accurate too.
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I don't consider "hundreds of rounds" to be an indicator of reliability. I've put thousands and thousands of rounds through my Glock 19 and the only issues I've had were with one bad batch of ammo. It runs more reliably after a thousand rounds without being cleaned or oiled than the majority of 1911s I've seen, my friends have seen, etc. In competition I can't remember anyone having an issue with a Glock but I see folks have problems with 1911s at almost every match.
 
Okay, I fired more than 5,000 rounds of ammo through each of my 1911s and had a stove pipe and one misfire due to a bad round of ammo. And mine were double stack magazines that held 16 rounds.
 
The only jam I ever had with my grandfather's 1911s was due to miscrimped ammo.

On the other hand, when my brother took a gunfighter pistol course 100% of Glocks jammed over the course of the weekend.

The plural of anecdote is not "data".
 
Citing WeekendGunnit in a serious argument isn't a good idea.
 
Was that directed at me? I'm not on /r/guns, any similarity between my post and one there is cooincidental or it was posted by someone who was in that same class.
 
Blind_Io;n3545478 said:
Was that directed at me? I'm not on /r/guns, any similarity between my post and one there is cooincidental or it was posted by someone who was in that same class.
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No, I was aiming that at Level, I should have quoted him.
 
I cited some reddit page? If so it wasn't intentional. It's pretty well known that 1911s are picky about magazines, don't feed JHPs well, jam quite a bit, etc. Back in the day when they were kept simple they ran fine, as do custom high-end ones, but the majority of them just don't run well. This"argument" is the equivalent of saying that a Jaguar is more reliable than a Toyota.
 
You are always spouting some "well known opinion" about guns and have been refuted many times. The only people I know that have trouble with 1911, or most other semi-automatic pistols are the people that don't take care of them. Much like with a car, a gun needs to be lubricated. Many don't do it often enough, or do it improperly.
 
Yeah but a 1911 needs to be lubricated ten times more often than a plastic gun.

​​​​​Like I said, 1911s are made by dozens of companies and most run pretty poorly. My Remington was a testament to that - it didn't work with Remington mags, it worked sometimes with Wilson and Chip, it didn't feed all ammo, etc. For the price of a new Glock there aren't any well-made 1911s. Even the ones that ARE well-made require much closer attention and care than a plastic gun - more frequent cleaning and oiling, more difficult to field strip, etc and you still end up with a large heavy gun that barely holds more rounds than a revolver.
 
LeVeL;n3545474 said:
I don't consider "hundreds of rounds" to be an indicator of reliability. I've put thousands and thousands of rounds through my Glock 19 and the only issues I've had were with one bad batch of ammo. It runs more reliably after a thousand rounds without being cleaned or oiled than the majority of 1911s I've seen, my friends have seen, etc. In competition I can't remember anyone having an issue with a Glock but I see folks have problems with 1911s at almost every match.
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LeVeL;n3545494 said:
Yeah but a 1911 needs to be lubricated ten times more often than a plastic gun.
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I think you missed my (last) point mate, but, I'll digress because it suits me. :) What I can do is ask my father-in-law about his experience shooting 10,000's of rounds through it for decades to see what he says. I'm willing to bet he will have similar results as what I've experienced with it since takes care of it but, that is just a waste of time. Something you should know, my father-in-law also has a Glock that he uses for his EDC because he doesn't want to carry his 100+ year old war relic and loves that too just like his 1911 and he maintains that properly as well. He cleans, lubricates, and etc both his 1911 and Glock after every range visit as I believe everyone should and has zero problems with either. But, I get it, you're a glock-head (my term I just probably made up, not derogatory in any way :D). You'll always be one and it is pointless to have a discussion about this with someone so hell-bent one way, so I'm out, nothing personal. It feels like the Camaro vs Mustang or Chevy vs Ford debate, which is tiresome. I'll chime back in this thread when the subject changes, I'm getting too old and cranky to have an argument. ;)

-------------------------------

I did want to at least address the "require much closer attention and care than a plastic gun" comment as I think this is absolutely the wrong state of mind and not specifically related to the 1911 vs Glock debate. Owning a firearm should require more attention and dutiful maintenance. If you or anyone are somehow using the "I don't have to maintain my plastic gun as much as a metal gun" as a some kind of bonus to owning a polymer firearm then that is disturbing. It is just part of being a firearm owner to have to spend the time and to pay "closer attention" to your firearm regardless of what it is and what it is made of. These people, which I'm not saying you are, that go through life barely or if ever properly maintaining their firearm are in for a surprise when they are in a HD or SD scenario and get a FTF at the wrong ass time. ;) Most of what you see is a bunch of people not properly maintaining any of their firearms so when you witness some random chick or bloke shooting their 1911 and they are having problems chances are they aren't properly maintaining it and I would guess that their other firearms are doing the same. Taking care of your firearm and properly maintaining it--which also includes replacing any worn or defective parts (most mags, because mags in general are an industry problem)--should be required labor as a firearm owner.
 
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LeVeL;n3545488 said:
I cited some reddit page? If so it wasn't intentional. It's pretty well known that 1911s are picky about magazines, don't feed JHPs well, jam quite a bit, etc. Back in the day when they were kept simple they ran fine, as do custom high-end ones, but the majority of them just don't run well. This"argument" is the equivalent of saying that a Jaguar is more reliable than a Toyota.
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What I meant was you were effectively paraphrasing the "hurr durr 1911s jam all the time" crap that gets flung around there. I disagree with the assertion that the majority of them don't run well. I believe that is just confirmation bias, where people see what they want to see and hear what they want to hear. FWIW, my STI seems to run just fine, although I have only put around 250 rounds through it and it does not have a standard barrel setup (it has a bull barrel without a bushing and a different guide rod).
 
JCE;n3545498 said:
I did want to at least address the "require much closer attention and care than a plastic gun" comment as I think this is absolutely the wrong state of mind and not specifically related to the 1911 vs Glock debate. Owning a firearm should require more attention and dutiful maintenance. If you or anyone are somehow using the "I don't have to maintain my plastic gun as much as a metal gun" as a some kind of bonus to owning a polymer firearm then that is disturbing. It is just part of being a firearm owner to have to spend the time and to pay "closer attention" to your firearm regardless of what it is and what it is made of. These people, which I'm not saying you are, that go through life barely or if ever properly maintaining their firearm are in for a surprise when they are in a HD or SD scenario and get a FTF at the wrong ass time. ;) Most of what you see is a bunch of people not properly maintaining any of their firearms so when you witness some random chick or bloke shooting their 1911 and they are having problems chances are they aren't properly maintaining it and I would guess that their other firearms are doing the same. Taking care of your firearm and properly maintaining it--which also includes replacing any worn or defective parts (most mags, because mags in general are an industry problem)--should be required labor as a firearm owner.
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I think your argument hinges on lack of maintenance being simple laziness, in which case I absolutely agree with you. However, there's another argument to be made for lack of maintenance out of necessity. For example, I was at a two-day event once where I shot around 1300 rounds. Not only does that gunk up the gun, there was also blowing sand both days and the guns were filthy. Some people had major issues with reliability in those conditions, while others had guns that kept working well. I don't consider a firearm to be reliable if it needs a cleaning every hundred rounds to run 100% - I consider that a limitation. I understand that maybe most gun owners shoot only on nice sunny days a few times a year and clean their guns right away but that's not a testament to their guns' reliability - a dragster runs very reliably... one pass at a time, then it needs an engine rebuild, so I wouldn't consider it a reliable daily driver. In classes and in competition, both scenarios where you don't get the luxury of obsessively cleaning your gun, I've seen 1911s fail time and again, while modern Lego guns just keep on working and my observations are backed up by numerous trainers, competitors, etc. Outside of classes and competition, the 1911 remains a large, heavy gun with low capacity.
 
LeVeL;n3545501 said:
I think your argument hinges on lack of maintenance being simple laziness, in which case I absolutely agree with you. However, there's another argument to be made for lack of maintenance out of necessity. For example, I was at a two-day event once where I shot around 1300 rounds. Not only does that gunk up the gun, there was also blowing sand both days and the guns were filthy. Some people had major issues with reliability in those conditions, while others had guns that kept working well. I don't consider a firearm to be reliable if it needs a cleaning every hundred rounds to run 100% - I consider that a limitation. I understand that maybe most gun owners shoot only on nice sunny days a few times a year and clean their guns right away but that's not a testament to their guns' reliability - a dragster runs very reliably... one pass at a time, then it needs an engine rebuild, so I wouldn't consider it a reliable daily driver. In classes and in competition, both scenarios where you don't get the luxury of obsessively cleaning your gun, I've seen 1911s fail time and again, while modern Lego guns just keep on working and my observations are backed up by numerous trainers, competitors, etc. Outside of classes and competition, the 1911 remains a large, heavy gun with low capacity.
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I can appreciate what you're saying. :) All I'll add is everyone's mileage may vary on which 1911 they have I think. 1913 and 1918 mfg. military 1911's are some of the most reliable of the type assuming you get ones that don't have their barrels shot out or mismatched parts. Would I enter a competition with one? Maybe, but only if it is an all original old one and only because I'm pretty accurate with it. But the single stack mag is the one thing I can say that is a disadvantage for sure. But, having said that I have fired a double stack 1911 and with the fatter grip my accuracy suffered--did not like it. lol Do not remember what brand it was. Guess once you get used to something for so long it is hard to replicate your experience with something very different. I WILL say however I finally recently found another handgun I was as accurate (and even slightly better than) the 1911. The Walther PPQ is a fucking awesome pistol. Probably going to buy one as my wife's EDC but man does that thing shoot fucking awesome--might even buy one for myself for my "nightstand" gun. Plus, it is stupidly reliable and well made. I loved everything about it. :D
 
LeVeL;n3545494 said:
Yeah but a 1911 needs to be lubricated ten times more often than a plastic gun.

​​​​​Like I said, 1911s are made by dozens of companies and most run pretty poorly. My Remington was a testament to that - it didn't work with Remington mags, it worked sometimes with Wilson and Chip, it didn't feed all ammo, etc. For the price of a new Glock there aren't any well-made 1911s. Even the ones that ARE well-made require much closer attention and care than a plastic gun - more frequent cleaning and oiling, more difficult to field strip, etc and you still end up with a large heavy gun that barely holds more rounds than a revolver.
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I own both polymer and steel guns, including 1911s. The amount of oil is the same for both. Polymer frame guns still use metal inserts that contact the slide, the slide still moves down the barrel. I use about fourdrops of oil on my 1911s, the same way my grandfather and father taught me to. One drop on each slide track, one where the bushing slides along the barrel, and depending on the gun, maybe one on the top of the action if that particular pistol has metal-to-metal contact. I lube my CZ and FN the same way but I focus on those metal rails in the polymer frame.

I have not found my polymer guns to need any more or less maintenance than my 1911s. The FN is actually more picky about ammo than my 1960s Colts or my Springfield Microcompact (before I sold it). One of the problems here is that you are looking at the most copied handgun in the world - that means that there will be a ton of variation in quality and fitment. A well-built 1911 will run just fine if it is cleaned and maintained - just like any other gun. Any weapon design will have problems if it is sloppily built. Just look at India; they made their own copy of the Galil, a perfectly good rifle. The problem is that they got sloppy with manufacturing and ended up recalling all of them from the field due to malfunctions, they reissued their old AKs instead. The Galil is a perfectly serviceable and proven design, but if you don't build it properly it will have problems.
 
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