The 'I don't like Tesla' Thread

NecroJoe

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Interesting that radar wouldn't be used as an additional data point, to augment the cameras. Perhaps they were good enough at the time to be the best option, but as AI and cameras have improved, maybe it's a handicap. :unsure:
 

eizbaer

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Yeah, that’s the way the rumors are going: the radar producing too many (wrong) data points they couldn’t align with what their camera AI was seeing…
Still, this is pretty wild and to me at least quite a gamble, especially considering that cars being delivered now come with reduced functionality until they figure their software out.
 

Blind_Io

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In aircraft, we moved from having to see things to using radar to fly at night and in low visibility. Tesla has gone from all-weather radar that can see through fog, snow, spray, etc to a camera system?

wut?
 

leviathan

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Tesla's not the first or only ones omitting radar - many modern cars come with pure camera-based ACC, like the current 2-series BMW where it works up to 160 km/h iirc (only one example I had off the top of my head, there's tons).
 

narf

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Tesla's not the first or only ones omitting radar - many modern cars come with pure camera-based ACC, like the current 2-series BMW where it works up to 160 km/h iirc (only one example I had off the top of my head, there's tons).
Eh? My current 2er has radar and works up to 210.
 

jack_christie

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Tesla's not the first or only ones omitting radar - many modern cars come with pure camera-based ACC, like the current 2-series BMW where it works up to 160 km/h iirc (only one example I had off the top of my head, there's tons).

But the BMW doesn't claim Level 5.

Tesla still testing lidar:

Tesla also increased prices recently.
 

leviathan

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Eh? My current 2er has radar and works up to 210.
Sorry, meant the 2-series "Active Tourer" - at least some of them definitely had the camera-based ACC, D-Fence's parent's one has it as I remember.

Tesla still testing lidar:
Andrej Karpathy (lead Autopilot engineer) has described this in his talk: they are using LIDAR on test cars as a source of "ground truth" to validate the vision system.
 

eizbaer

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Tesla's not the first or only ones omitting radar - many modern cars come with pure camera-based ACC, like the current 2-series BMW where it works up to 160 km/h iirc (only one example I had off the top of my head, there's tons).
did not know that...

i am fairly optimistic that it may work - humans only have eyes also, and the radar consistently fails in snowy conditions. so fair enough. still think it's an idiot move to release this change when the software isn't ready yet to deliver the same features.
 

jack_christie

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Sorry, meant the 2-series "Active Tourer" - at least some of them definitely had the camera-based ACC, D-Fence's parent's one has it as I remember.


Andrej Karpathy (lead Autopilot engineer) has described this in his talk: they are using LIDAR on test cars as a source of "ground truth" to validate the vision system.

Doesn't make sense as everyone else says you need lidar for level 5.

Mircea Gradu of Velodyne Lidar was on Autoline After Hours talking about their $500 solid state lidar system.

 

NooDle

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did not know that...

i am fairly optimistic that it may work - humans only have eyes also, and the radar consistently fails in snowy conditions. so fair enough. still think it's an idiot move to release this change when the software isn't ready yet to deliver the same features.

Can’t they heat the material up so any snow is melted off? Sounds like a no brainer but perhaps there’s other issues I’m not seeing.

My acc(radar) has worked flawlessly for over 3 years, throwing up one (1) error because ‘I’m covered in snow and can’t see anything’

Also why is 210 the upper limit for acc driving anyways? Why that specific number?
My wife’s old picasso would go up to 250 kph on the acc but the car struggled to reach 200 so it wasn’t the issue. I just don’t see what happens at 211 km/hr or more that makes a radar cc stop working?
 

eizbaer

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Can’t they heat the material up so any snow is melted off? Sounds like a no brainer but perhaps there’s other issues I’m not seeing.
They could. But the damn car was designed in california, so they didn't think of that I guess. Same with the frozen door handles.
it's not too bad really, I've experienced it maybe 5 times over the more than 50kkm I've put on the car in 2 years - but still, if I were to live somewhere up north it'd be garbage.

Also why is 210 the upper limit for acc driving anyways? Why that specific number?
Probably because someone calculated that at some speed and the speed the system can react to changes coupled with the distance it can "view", it would get unsafe or something... so if the car is doing some 50 m/s or something and the system can only view 150 m far, that'd be 3 seconds - not a lot to react and possibly bring the car to a stop :| ... or it's to do with the following distance the car has to keep to the next car in front, if that's larger than the distance the system can see, it wouldn't work at all anymore.
 

RdKetchup

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In aircraft, we moved from having to see things to using radar to fly at night and in low visibility. Tesla has gone from all-weather radar that can see through fog, snow, spray, etc to a camera system?

wut?

In the civilian world, radar is not used to fly at night and in low visibility. Secondary radar is used my ATC to track aircrafts (but this is slowly getting phased out in favor of ADS-B), and aircraft do have some form of radar, but only for weather avoidance and to monitor the altitude above the ground.

Even in the military, image intensifier based night vision and FLIR is what is used to see at night.
 

Blind_Io

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When we have the equivalent of ATC for cars, that would make sense.
 

edkwon

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We are leasing our current Y, but will likely purchase a Y after the lease is up, hopefully whatever bugs come as a result of a 100% camera based autopilot system will be sorted out by then. I really wonder how they plan to work around adverse weather/visibility conditions where radar is superior to visual based cameras (fog for example)
 

jack_christie

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We are leasing our current Y, but will likely purchase a Y after the lease is up, hopefully whatever bugs come as a result of a 100% camera based autopilot system will be sorted out by then. I really wonder how they plan to work around adverse weather/visibility conditions where radar is superior to visual based cameras (fog for example)
Might better to stick with old spec, until new configuration is independently tested.


Tesla Model 3 Loses CR Top Pick Status and IIHS Safety Award After Dropping Features


Automatic emergency braking is no longer functional after Tesla drops radar for a camera-based system, a federal agency says


EuroNCAP rating probably due for a downgrade too.
 

eizbaer

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EuroNCAP rating probably due for a downgrade too.
Currently only US models affected (at least they say - no idea how they're going to keep that up though).

Also: this is why I mean it's a bullshit move to push this change out the door before they have the software in place to deliver the same functionality. The downgrade, as is very well stated in that headline, isn't because they ditched the radar and went for full vision. It's because they can't deliver the same features yet. Ugh... I just don't get it.
 

EyeMWing

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This is likely a decision of the form

Engineer: 'We have problems getting the radar and the vision system to agree - they often provide conflicting data. This is a very, very difficult problem to solve because we don't know which one to trust in any given situation'
Manager: 'Well get rid of the radar then'
 

Perc

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Every other car with a battery tucked away has remote charge points that are easier to get to. Even Chrysler managed to figure this out in the 90s, FFS.

Renault didn't when they were designing this in the late 90's.

1622206696860.png


  • The battery is in front of the drivers seat, under the floor.
  • The removable floor mat has an inch or so of sound insulation foam glued to the underside of it.
  • There's also usually a crack in the mat itself where your right heel is, which means water from melting snow will get down there.
  • Batteries always die when it's -29C or so which means the foam will be frozen solid to the steel cab floor underneath.
  • If you manage to remove the floor mat without ripping it, you'll find a steel lid held down by four rusty M5 screws with Torx T30 heads. Because T30 is exactly the tool you'll have in your Leatherman when you're in a hurry and need to get the lid off to jump start the wretched thing.
  • A replacement floor mat was around €300 iirc.
But I digress.
 
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