The Israel / Palestine mire (again)

[Delll]

I don't think the point is to counter one piece of a report with another.

Just what are Palestinians supposed to do? Submit to genocide?

Imagine yourself in Germany in 1941. Would you have happily gone to Auschwitz? Or would you have considered some kind of resistance, as the Palestinians are doing now in the face of similar circumstances?

 

[argatoga]

So Israel traps Palestinians in a city and forcibly kicks them off their land elsewhere and they wonder why radicals pop up. Between this and their detention camp for black African refugees in Holot, they aren't looking like the shining example of democracy in the Middle East. Still, they and Turkey are far better than the other states in the region. Being white and non-Muslim I wouldn't have issues living there. Unfortunately it and Turkey are seeing a rise of religious nationalism.

 

[LeVeL]

Just what are Palestinians supposed to do? Submit to genocide?

Imagine yourself in Germany in 1941. Would you have happily gone to Auschwitz? Or would you have considered some kind of resistance, as the Palestinians are doing now in the face of similar circumstances?

Your ignorance is truly astonishing. Educate yourself:

1) That map gets posted a lot and it's bullshit. There was no Palestinian state at the end of WWII, as the map would leave you to believe. That land belonged to the British.

2) The UN Partition Plan called for a two-state solution back in 1947! However:

The Plan was accepted by the Jewish public, except for its fringes, and by the Jewish Agency despite its perceived limitations.[5][6]

Arab leaders and governments rejected the plan of partition in the resolution[7] and indicated an unwillingness to accept any form of territorial division.

Read that again: the Jews accepted a piece of the land that the British had under the control, while the Arabs flat-out refused to settle for anything less than everything. The Jews are the bad guys here, right?

3) In 1948, the very next day after the British pulled out, Israel was attacked by: Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Iraq, with help from Yemen, Pakistan, Sudan, Lebanon, and Saudi Arabia. Yep, the Jews are clearly the bad guys again

4) To this day Israel continues to be attacked by groups (and governments) that have officially pledged as their ultimate goal the destruction of Israel and the slaughter of all Jews worldwide. Excuse me while I don't support terrorism that's actively trying to finish the Final Solution that I would literally be a part of.

And your Auschwitz comment is the single dumbest thing I've ever seen on the internet. Congratulations.

 

[Delll]

And your Auschwitz comment is the single dumbest thing I've ever seen on the internet. Congratulations.

I had suspected you never read your own posts.

 

[LeVeL]

I had suspected you never read your own posts.

I had suspected that you wouldn't address anything I posted :lol:

 

[Delll]

Your ignorance is truly astonishing. Educate yourself:

1) That map gets posted a lot and it's bullshit. There was no Palestinian state at the end of WWII, as the map would leave you to believe. That land belonged to the British.

2) The UN Partition Plan called for a two-state solution back in 1947! However:

Read that again: the Jews accepted a piece of the land that the British had under the control, while the Arabs flat-out refused to settle for anything less than everything. The Jews are the bad guys here, right?

3) In 1948, the very next day after the British pulled out, Israel was attacked by: Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Iraq, with help from Yemen, Pakistan, Sudan, Lebanon, and Saudi Arabia. Yep, the Jews are clearly the bad guys again

4) To this day Israel continues to be attacked by groups (and governments) that have officially pledged as their ultimate goal the destruction of Israel and the slaughter of all Jews worldwide. Excuse me while I don't support terrorism that's actively trying to finish the Final Solution that I would literally be a part of.

And your Auschwitz comment is the single dumbest thing I've ever seen on the internet. Congratulations.

1) I looked for a picture that shows border progression since Israel was founded but couldn't find one and couldn't be bothered to edit that out thinking you would be mature enough to get the point of diminishing lebensraum for Palestinians.

2) In hindsight Arabs were lucky not to accept it. Agreeing to that would have legitimised muslim oppression in Israel.

3) And in 2015 Palestinians are being attacked by Israel. The very idea of a purely jewish state (Israel's raison d'etre) that happens to have a large muslim population should alarm the neighbouring muslim countries, especially when they have such powerful allies. Who's to say the Israeli government doesn't go to the UN crying for some more holy land because 6 million yadda yadda..

4) How many Israeli civilians have been killed in those attacks in the last decade? And how many Palestinian civilians? If someone looks at you funny, you don't shoot.. Oh, never mind.

 

[Mitchi]

Imagine yourself in Germany in 1941. Would you have happily gone to Auschwitz?

This is the kind of comparison you're gonna make in this topic? Really?!

Dude...

 

[LeVeL]

1) I looked for a picture that shows border progression since Israel was founded but couldn't find one and couldn't be bothered to edit that out thinking you would be mature enough to get the point of diminishing lebensraum for Palestinians.

Let me just post something that is factually incorrect and when called out for it I'll call the other person immature. Makes sense!

2) In hindsight Arabs were lucky not to accept it. Agreeing to that would have legitimised muslim oppression in Israel.

Nice hypothetical. Too bad what I posted is actual events.

3) And in 2015 Palestinians are being attacked by Israel.

Uhh... I think you're confusing the two sides here. Israelis are not the ones that shoot rockets at peaceful cities.

The very idea of a purely jewish state... (Israel's raison d'etre) that happens to have a large muslim population should alarm the neighbouring muslim countries, especially when they have such powerful allies.

You do realize that there are dozens of Muslim countries, right? Heck, there are over a dozen countries that apply Sharia law in full!

Who's to say the Israeli government doesn't go to the UN crying for some more holy land because 6 million yadda yadda..

Are you a Holocaust denier or something? Besides, the Jews already have gone to the UN - you know, in the 1940s...

4) How many Israeli civilians have been killed in those attacks in the last decade? And how many Palestinian civilians? If someone looks at you funny, you don't shoot.. Oh, never mind.

How many rockets have been fired from the Palestinian territories into Israel? Is it a bad thing that the Israelis are smart enough to come up with adequate missile defense against these constant unprovoked attacks?

 

[nomix]

1) That map gets posted a lot and it's bullshit. There was no Palestinian state at the end of WWII,

Having a flag is crucial, on that we can agree.

as the map would leave you to believe. That land belonged to the British.

It didn't belong to the British, but the British controlled it.

2) The UN Partition Plan called for a two-state solution back in 1947! However:

Read that again: the Jews accepted a piece of the land that the British had under the control, while the Arabs flat-out refused to settle for anything less than everything. The Jews are the bad guys here, right?

No, the jews aren't the bad guys, the current Israeli government, and a number of previous Israeli governments have been bad guys on one of the sides, but there are enough bastards on the arab side as well.

Anyhoo. The arab population of Palestine still has a right to the land they inhabited. It is incredibly ignorant to argue they don't have a right to their ancestoral lands. It's close to being idiotic, actually.

3) In 1948, the very next day after the British pulled out, Israel was attacked by: Egypt, Jordan, Syria, and Iraq, with help from Yemen, Pakistan, Sudan, Lebanon, and Saudi Arabia. Yep, the Jews are clearly the bad guys again

Yep, this is clearly the fault of the current population of Palestinians i Israel and the illegally occupied territories.

4) To this day Israel continues to be attacked by groups (and governments) that have officially pledged as their ultimate goal the destruction of Israel and the slaughter of all Jews worldwide. Excuse me while I don't support terrorism that's actively trying to finish the Final Solution that I would literally be a part of.

To this day, Israel continues to occupy land that doesn't belong to her. All terrorist actions against Israeli civilians is of course unconditionally wrong.

Unless Israel begins to act in a reasonable manner, it will at one point either cease to exist, or it will cease to be Israel. If Israel wants to continue on the current path, she will have to turn into a state none of us wants.

It's time to choose. What Israel do you want? You don't get to choose both.

 

[LeVeL]

It didn't belong to the British, but the British controlled it.

Let's just say it was their's to dole out.

Anyhoo. The arab population of Palestine still has a right to the land they inhabited. It is incredibly ignorant to argue they don't have a right to their ancestoral lands. It's close to being idiotic, actually.

Of course they do. But they should've accepted the partition plan to begin with.

Yep, this is clearly the fault of the current population of Palestinians i Israel and the illegally occupied territories.

Maybe not the current population's but certainly their fathers'.

To this day, Israel continues to occupy land that doesn't belong to her. All terrorist actions against Israeli civilians is of course unconditionally wrong.

Unless Israel begins to act in a reasonable manner, it will at one point either cease to exist, or it will cease to be Israel. If Israel wants to continue on the current path, she will have to turn into a state none of us wants.

It's time to choose. What Israel do you want? You don't get to choose both.

The Palestinians need to demonstrate to the world and especially to Israel that they are capable of peace. You can't negotiate with a group that's continuously shelling you with rockets. Hell, Israel has given away more land than it current controls in exchange for peace but, as we all know, they did not get what they were promised. Kick out terrorist Hamas, elect a real government, stop bombing Israel, and then I'm sure Netanyahu (or whoever is the leader at that time) would be more than happy to discuss peace terms. The Israelis don't exactly enjoy constantly being at war...

 

[laxmax613]

Being white and non-Muslim I wouldn't have issues living there. Unfortunately it and Turkey are seeing a rise of religious nationalism.

I think that we've got ourselves stuck in a rut here, but you're making an interesting point that is worth discussing.

Please look at my post about the results of the last election on the previous page. Ideological circumstances in Israel are shifting away from religious nationalism more and more, despite Netanyahu's continued presence at the top of the government. The complicated electoral process in Israel belies this phenomenon because of the coalition system. Nonetheless, Israeli society has been going through the process of removing power from the Rabbinate and reforming social rights so that minorities of religious, ethnic and linguistic varieties can have greater chances to succeed. For example, a Likud minister has greenlit a plan to expand arabic education down the the first grade in all schools. And he's a member of a right wing party!

That's just one example. Obviously circumstances with the Palestinians cannot be discounted as a problem facing Israeli society (in terms of security but mostly in terms of forging a real solution that befits the dignity of every party involved, especially the Palestinians), but the places where Israeli society is getting it right, and is engaged in conversations about how to improve, cannot be seen as a mask for anything else. It's all complicated and the fact that the society is so introspective is cause for hope.

 

[Firecat]

I think to expect the Palestinians to sit and wait for Israel to end the occupation, blockade, and stop building settlements (among other things), is unreasonable. So the proverbial "ball" is in Israel's court.

This conflict will end at some point. So it can be negotiated now, on Israel's terms?.but sooner or later a solution will be forced upon them. Either by the international community, or just a change in demographics.

Pressure for Palestinian statehood is rising and Israel is losing allies. These are the realities right now. Prolonging the inevitable just isn't in Israel's best interest.

 

[laxmax613]

I didn't say that that was what they or anyone should do. I just said that it is not worth anyone's while to under-estimate the power of progressivism in Israel's society and that to cynically write off Israeli society as reactionary religion-nationalists is not accurate.

 

[argatoga]

I didn't say that that was what they or anyone should do. I just said that it is not worth anyone's while to under-estimate the power of progressivism in Israel's society and that to cynically write off Israeli society as reactionary religion-nationalists is not accurate.

The whole progressive thing is undermined by the fact the country is still being led by the man responsible for 2,000 deaths of mostly civilians. That and Israel has not stopped illegally occupying land. Teaching Arabic in first grade isn't exactly tit for tat.

It sounds like bleeding heart liberal crap in the U.S. It makes little difference, doesn't address the problem, and requires minimal effort, but it makes them feel sooooo good about themselves.

 

[Firecat]

I was just speaking generally, not as a reply to your post. I've said many times before, there is more diverse opinion within the Israeli Knesset than in the U.S. Congress. That probably applies to the greater Israeli populations and U.S. populations

 

[argatoga]

I was just speaking generally, not as a reply to your post. I've said many times before, there is more diverse opinion within the Israeli Knesset than in the U.S. Congress. That probably applies to the greater Israeli populations and U.S. populations

I will admit to having an outsider's view. However, the fact that the U.S. still has a torture camp does say a lot about our country. As does the racial issues we have in the justice system.

 

[LeVeL]

From the election thread:

Level, seriously, you need to reassess your view on this. You can not honestly believe that the West Bank is Israeli territory. If that's the case, then really there is no point in having a debate with you. But in the interest of conversation, please expand on why.

My view is that the world needs to call a spade a spade and stop pandering to the side that supports terrorism at the expense of the side what that is democratic and quite socially liberal. As far as I'm concerned the more settlements Israel builds, the less land is available to Hamas (who have close ties to Abbas) to launch rockets at Israeli civilians. I've been saying the same thing for years - before there can be any possibility of peace and a true two-state solution, the Palestinians need to show that they are capable of peaceful coexistence; sadly they instead keep calling for the complete destruction of Israel. Not much sense in calling for peace when only one side is willing to accept it.

 

[tigger]

... the side what that is democratic ...

And it's easily debatable just how 'democratic' Israel is.

As far as I'm concerned the more settlements Israel builds, the less land is available to Hamas (who have close ties to Abbas) to launch rockets at Israeli civilians.

So you fully support Israeli settlements, support running Palestinians off their land by force but ...

... before there can be any possibility of peace and a true two-state solution, the Palestinians need to show that they are capable of peaceful coexistence.

... Israel gets a free hand to take over their territory.

Not much sense in calling for peace when only one side is willing to accept it.

Yeah no shit. :?

How fucking disconnected from reality do you have to be to string together that train of thought? Jesus fucking Christ man.

 

[Racin]

From the election thread:

My view is that the world needs to call a spade a spade and stop pandering to the side that supports terrorism at the expense of the side what that is democratic and quite socially liberal. As far as I'm concerned the more settlements Israel builds, the less land is available to Hamas (who have close ties to Abbas) to launch rockets at Israeli civilians. I've been saying the same thing for years - before there can be any possibility of peace and a true two-state solution, the Palestinians need to show that they are capable of peaceful coexistence; sadly they instead keep calling for the complete destruction of Israel. Not much sense in calling for peace when only one side is willing to accept it.

If Israel builds settlements all over the disputed land, how is that not the complete destruction of the Palestine state? The two sides have the same goal - destroying the other side.

 

[LeVeL]

If Israel builds settlements all over the disputed land, how is that not the complete destruction of the Palestine state? The two sides have the same goal - destroying the other side.

The destruction of what Palestinian state? No such thing exists because the people that want to create it are terrorists and are not even willing to consider the possibility of a peaceful resolution. Welcome to the 21st century though - 300 years ago the Palestinians would've been wiped out completely and Israel would've taken over whatever land it wanted, instead of giving away more than half of its territory in exchange for peace that they never received.