The philosophy of rights

narf said:
Yeah, basic human rights should be universal. Self defence is one of them, with common sense limits of adequate response for the situation you're in. For example, that dude in Missoula, Montana who shot and killed a German student entering the shooter's garage wasn't adequate self defence.
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Yes, that was first degree murder, imo - premeditated.


narf said:
That's the thing, you can't assume that you're alone on the road unless it's private or closed... especially if you intend to go fast, no way to know in advance if that little old lady isn't going to pop up in a sudden.
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I see your point but there are definitely times when you CAN know that you're alone. For example, this is part of a road I used to take between my house and college all the time. The amount of traffic you see if very unusual btw, and in that traffic you wouldn't want to go 100mph, of course. The vast majority of time I'd driven there, however, it was dead empty, with visibility for at least half a mile the entire time.
 
prizrak said:
Well this is where you get into whether there is greater benefit to free secondary education vs possible "career" students. Also just because education is free doesn't mean living is, so a student would still need to have a part-time job. Making secondary education affordable (not even necessarily free) is a huge benefit to society, if for no other reason than those people tend to get higher paying jobs and if their income isn't tied up in paying off debts they will be stimulating the economy.
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Over here, most secondary education is free-ish, certainly free compared to some of the tuition fees you guys charge over there. For the living expenses, those without rich parents get federally funded assistance through BAf?G (Bundesausbildungsf?rderungsgesundheit). The great thing is, this starts out as a huge benefit to the student - half the assistance is a gift, the other half has to be paid back interest-free at least five years after finishing with possible delays and discounts. For example, I finished my BSc in 2008 and paid back the loan half in 2013 after 2.5 years of working full time... minus a sizable discount for very good grades, and another discount for paying it all back in one lump sum.
If your studies take longer, BAf?G gets switched to a full loan with low interest rates and similar perks.
As a result, you can usually get by without a full part-time job. Do some stuff during the months off, maybe a small teaching gig during the semester, some weekend stuff... should be enough to supplement BAf?G.

The idea is that these programs pay for themselves very quickly. By reducing (not removing, sadly) the relationship between the wealth of your parents and your own education you increase the overall capabilities of your future nation/workforce. That results in loads of societal benefits, and obviously also more taxes paid by those getting a better job after uni.
Sure, not everyone who gets a full secondary education will become a better contributor to society... but those are far outweighed by the others, the averages work out well.
Not showering people out of uni with crippling debt allows them to start a family with reasonable finances, reducing the future burden on the welfare system.

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LeVeL said:
I see your point but there are definitely times when you CAN know that you're alone. For example, this is part of a road I used to take between my house and college all the time. The amount of traffic you see if very unusual btw, and in that traffic you wouldn't want to go 100mph, of course. The vast majority of time I'd driven there, however, it was dead empty, with visibility for at least half a mile the entire time.
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Feel free to speed then. Just don't complain when you didn't see the cop sitting in the tree line, eating donuts next to his laser gun.

No guard rails / armco stopping you from ploughing into trees when some technical bits on your car go tits up? Probably not the best place to go very fast.
 
Humans are social animals. Rights are the principals a society follows in order to ensure order.

The Enlightenment idea of natural rights, which is what Thomas Jefferson was referring too, I believe are the best principals to base a society on. I'll use Wikipedia's enumeration of Lock's definition.

Life: everyone is entitled to live once they are created.
Liberty: everyone is entitled to do anything they want to so long as it doesn't conflict with the first right.
Estate: everyone is entitled to own all they create or gain through gift or trade so long as it doesn't conflict with the first two rights.
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These are principals that can be implemented and interpreted in many ways. For example, I'm far to the Left and consider Universal Heath Care to be part of the first principal.
 
narf said:
Over here, most secondary education is free-ish, certainly free compared to some of the tuition fees you guys charge over there. For the living expenses, those without rich parents get federally funded assistance through BAf?G (Bundesausbildungsf?rderungsgesundheit). The great thing is, this starts out as a huge benefit to the student - half the assistance is a gift, the other half has to be paid back interest-free at least five years after finishing with possible delays and discounts. For example, I finished my BSc in 2008 and paid back the loan half in 2013 after 2.5 years of working full time... minus a sizable discount for very good grades, and another discount for paying it all back in one lump sum.
If your studies take longer, BAf?G gets switched to a full loan with low interest rates and similar perks.
As a result, you can usually get by without a full part-time job. Do some stuff during the months off, maybe a small teaching gig during the semester, some weekend stuff... should be enough to supplement BAf?G.

The idea is that these programs pay for themselves very quickly. By reducing (not removing, sadly) the relationship between the wealth of your parents and your own education you increase the overall capabilities of your future nation/workforce. That results in loads of societal benefits, and obviously also more taxes paid by those getting a better job after uni.
Sure, not everyone who gets a full secondary education will become a better contributor to society... but those are far outweighed by the others, the averages work out well.
Not showering people out of uni with crippling debt allows them to start a family with reasonable finances, reducing the future burden on the welfare system.
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Sounds very similar to the old Soviet system* you go to Uni if your grades are good enough once there you get a stipend that commensurates with grades. One major difference is that it was 100% free, and you got to live in the dorms if need be and there was nothing to pay back. Part-time job was ofc an option no one would ban you from it but it was generally not necessary.

*It's still somewhat in place but it's more akin to the scholarship programs that we have here. There is a limited number of what's called "budget" seats and you have to go through a contest to get in (grades, exams, etc...) you also have to keep your grades at a certain level to keep qualifying and if you are really good could even qualify for a small stipend.

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narf said:
Uhm... I have the liberty to take your property, because my entitlement of liberty is only limited by conflicts with the first right? :?
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I had the same thought.
 
prizrak said:
Sounds very similar to the old Soviet system* you go to Uni if your grades are good enough once there you get a stipend that commensurates with grades. One major difference is that it was 100% free, and you got to live in the dorms if need be and there was nothing to pay back. Part-time job was ofc an option no one would ban you from it but it was generally not necessary.
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That's one part I forgot - not everyone can just decide to go to university. You need an Abitur, successfully completing 13 years of school. Some majors are restricted by grade, so for example if you want to study medicine you need a very good overall grade on your Abitur.
 
narf said:
That's one part I forgot - not everyone can just decide to go to university. You need an Abitur, successfully completing 13 years of school. Some majors are restricted by grade, so for example if you want to study medicine you need a very good overall grade on your Abitur.
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or wait for a few years (not the greatest idea, i admit) or, increasingly popular, sue yourself in because of procedural errors made somewhere along the way :| it's rather sad, really...
 
narf said:
Uhm... I have the liberty to take your property, because my entitlement of liberty is only limited by conflicts with the first right? :?
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They aren't rules. They are principals. The idea is that liberty is more important than material possessions. If I buy a slave as property I am violating the slave's right to liberty.
 
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