Unveiled: The Teslerr Model 3

prizrak

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Musk sees a problem and is trying to come up with solutions.
Bad solutions
The US relying on Russian rockets to get to orbit? Build private rockets.
Wasn't Musk's idea, US gov't didn't allow private space vehicles before. And SpaceX is not the only player in that game https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_private_spaceflight_companies
Mistakes or not, you have to admire the vision and the goal he has in mind.
Not if the mistakes are easily avoidable and frankly stupid.
even the hyperloop. It often takes bold, even risky moves to advance and make changes to the world.
That is plain idiotic and a complete non-starter, forget the cost and technical challenge of running massive vacuum chamber, you are in a 15ton bullet inches away from the wall, anything that causes that capsule to move even a little bit will end with human ground meat.
I don't worship at the feet of Musk, but you can't deny that he has had an effect on the landscape. The rise of Tesla has spurred other companies to invest more heavily in EV and hybrid vehicles. The mass market applications on an all-EV car company has changed policy in cities around the world as they plan to ban ICE vehicles from city centers over the next two decades. Volvo, Ford, BMW, Mercedes, and Nissan are all putting more money into EVs. Even if Honda and Nissan were the first to market with hybrid and EV tech, Tesla being so invested and proving that performance and luxury don't have to be sacrificed in an EV is pushing even more development.
EVs were being developed before Tesla (wayyyyy before Tesla) and Toyota has had their HFC cars running around before anyone heard/cared about the Model S.
We have seen the greatest leaps in battery technology in over a generation just in the past decade. Huge amounts of money are pouring in to battery and energy storage research right now.
Mostly driven by electronics companies, EV manufacturers took things that Apple, Samsung, Panasonic, et all came up with, not the other way around.
Tesla's push in the solar market is helping too, even my brother is getting a Tesla wall battery and solar panels on his home to help offset cooling costs in the summer. The price of residential solar has dropped something like 50% while efficiencies have risen.
Again completely unrelated to Tesla, this has been the case before Tesla and will be after Tesla, solar is a very attractive idea since it's essentially free energy.

Musk is not solely responsible for these changes, but he has certainly done a lot to change the perception of energy generation and EVs. He may be reckless, but he is ambitious and I do give him credit for that.
I will give you that he changed perception on EVs, that's about it really. His not ambitious, his cocky and arrogant, there is a difference.
 
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Blind_Io

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Bad solutions
That remains to be seen. Like it or not, he is at least trying something while most people sit around either complaining, doing nothing, or actively stifling progress that affects their antiquated business model

Wasn't Musk's idea, US gov't didn't allow private space vehicles before. And SpaceX is not the only player in that game https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_private_spaceflight_companies
The number of players in the game is irrelevant, it doesn't detract from SpaceX's accomplishments.

Not if the mistakes are easily avoidable and frankly stupid.
Which is easy to say from the sidelines.

That is plain idiotic and a complete non-starter, forget the cost and technical challenge of running massive vacuum chamber, you are in a 15ton bullet inches away from the wall, anything that causes that capsule to move even a little bit will end with human ground meat.
The same was said about flight, space travel, the automobile, bullet trains, supersonic speeds, etc.

EVs were being developed before Tesla (wayyyyy before Tesla) and Toyota has had their HFC cars running around before anyone heard/cared about the Model S.
Of course they were, some of the earliest cars were electric. Tesla has either generated or demonstrated sufficient interest to spur a surge in development of EVs, which may be the biggest contribution of the company to the planet.

Mostly driven by electronics companies, EV manufacturers took things that Apple, Samsung, Panasonic, et all came up with, not the other way around.
And Tesla saw those developments as a way to make a practical daily EV for a cost that was competitive with the ICE market. Just because they didn't start at the beginning doesn't mean they haven't contributed. Everyone stands on the shoulders of the giants who came before them.

Again completely unrelated to Tesla, this has been the case before Tesla and will be after Tesla, solar is a very attractive idea since it's essentially free energy.
But Tesla is the one investing in the continued development and making it attractive. Just because solar cells existed and batteries existed doesn't take away from the solar shingles or the packaging of all the parts together into something that is easily marketable and easily installed on residences. If you wanted a solar battery system with net metering before, you would have had to source everything yourself and build it yourself - at least in the vast majority of the country. Tesla has made it so you can order the system you want out of a catalog and have it installed in a matter of weeks. It takes longer to get the power company to give the approval to turn the system on than it does to install it.


I will give you that he changed perception on EVs, that's about it really. His not ambitious, his cocky and arrogant, there is a difference.
Being cocky and arrogant often goes hand in hand with ambition.

Musk is futurist, he looks at what could be rather than what is. That vision is his greatest strength (ok, that an money). He will, by his own nature overreach and fail; but when he succeeds, he will succeed in doing something that few thought possible. You don't do something groundbreaking without the arrogance to think that you can; to think that you can do something that others can't or won't do. It goes with the territory. If Musk manages to be the catalyst that means I don't have to check the air quality along with the weather when I walk out the door, then I wish him all the best. He is already changing perceptions about EVs and renewable energy. He is trying to change perceptions about mass transit, rapid transit, congestion, and even interplanetary travel.

Someday there will be someone trying to do something fantastic and there will be people on the internet saying he is cocky, arrogant, doomed to fail, and basing his ideas on Musk. Everyone stands on the shoulders of giants, and one day, they will have someone stand on their shoulders to take the next step.
 

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:yawn: can you guys go make a "let's hate on tesla and elon musk" thread or just rename this one? it's not been about the car it's supposed to be about for a few pages now...

also wasn't someone complaining about horrible fanboys? what is the opposite and how does being that make you any better?

... no, don't answer that :|
 

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Well said.

Musk's personality aside, he is trying to make a difference in the world. I would own a Tesla if I could afford a new car - in a heartbeat. The Model 3 is the perfect size for 95% of all my needs, it costs pennies to run, and it has a nice interior. As an around-town car, it is ideal; I could park the Xterra and use it as my adventure vehicle and for the few times I need to haul stuff that won't fit in a sedan. The Model 3 has become the comparison for small to midsize EVs, Ford, Nissan, WV, Fiat, and pretty much everyone who has announced EVs gets compared to Tesla. Power, speed, comfort, range, everything. Companies are now designing the next generation of vehicles specifically to compete with Tesla. Ford made a point to say they would have a midsize EV with the same range as Tesla and at a lower price point.

Hate all you want, but Tesla is the industry benchmark right now.
 
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Tesla? Industry benchmark? Of what? Shit interiors and dystopian driving? If Tesla vehicles are the benchmark for EVs, then I want no part of it.

Plug-in hybrids make infinitely more sense than any Tesla on the market and you don't need to add any extensive and expensive charging networks. A Fusion Energi or BMW i3 makes far more sense than any Tesla on the market, plus you get the added benefit of them not being built like shit.
 

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Hybrids are a stop-gap measure at best. Like it or not, petroleum fuels are going away - either due to scarcity, market forces, or regulation. It is just a matter of time. You might as well be emotionally invested in the kerosene industry because it doesn't require the expensive infrastructure of electricity.

How is driving a Tesla dystopian? I welcome the autopilot system; it's not like it is compulsory to use and there are many times on long, boring road trips that I'm just trying to put the miles down. That system is a safety feature and it would allow me to loot away from the road, get a drink, etc while still making progress down the road. Every automotive journalist praises the handling and performance of the Tesla, hell, someone took the back seat out of his and was spanking muscle cars at my local drag strip a few weeks ago.

Our sedan is a Ford Taurus. It is big, comfortable, fast enough to get out of its own way, but not exactly a performance car and I'm perfectly happy with it. It is quiet, has a nice sound system, has plenty of farkles to play with and it does its it's job admirably. It isn't a performance car and it isn't trying to be. The Model 3 is a small to mid-sized sedan, so compare it to other sedans. The S is a large sedan, so compare it to the Taurus, Impala, Avalon, and others in the same class. These are not supposed to be performance cars, but due to the nature of electric motors, they do perform very well. For the vast majority of my driving, a Tesla would be more than adequate.

I'm not going to convince you to love Tesla's cars, and I'm not trying to. All I'm saying is that for the vast majority of people, a car is just a tool to do a particular job and the Tesla does what most those people need. Driving for most people is a chore - hell, even enthusiasts, most of their driving is a chore. It's slogging through the city from A to B, the fun comes on the weekends when we can find a twisty road. That is a tiny percentage of people's tiny percentage of driving. Just look at the cars most people on this very forum own - small economy cars, mid size sedans, and a few practical wagons. Even those who have fast and fun cars tend to have the practical tool to get around parked next to it. This is the market. Most cars are bought the same way people buy a fridge or a dishwasher; Tesla's cars offer something that people seem to like and they are changing the market as a result.
 
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:yawn: can you guys go make a "let's hate on tesla and elon musk" thread or just rename this one? it's not been about the car it's supposed to be about for a few pages now...

also wasn't someone complaining about horrible fanboys? what is the opposite and how does being that make you any better?

... no, don't answer that :|
Just be glad the Model 3 doesn't use leaf springs...
 

prizrak

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The Teslerr Model 3

That remains to be seen. Like it or not, he is at least trying something while most people sit around either complaining, doing nothing, or actively stifling progress that affects their antiquated business model
Sure when they eventually stop tripping over same exact hurdles that NASA already fixed years (if not decades ago) they will have a viable solution, but they could have taken their very public research and do it right the first time.

The number of players in the game is irrelevant, it doesn't detract from SpaceX's accomplishments.
What did they accomplish exactly? Failure to take into account all the work that was done before them?


Which is easy to say from the sidelines.
Again there already was available research from NASA that they could have looked at and avoid all the RUDs they had.


The same was said about flight, space travel, the automobile, bullet trains, supersonic speeds, etc.
And solar roadways and nuclear powered cars and intercontinental dirigibles, etc.... It's a survivor fallacy, millions of ideas come about all the time few of those come to fruition but when someone ridicules bad ideas people run to the few that worked not the million that didn't

The idea of a supersonic train in a vacuum tube has been around for a 100 god damn years, it made no sense then and it still makes no sense. You are talking very basic physics here, you know how much damage a bullet can do, now imagine that but scaled to 15 metric tons. Look at what happens when a subway train derails at 30mph, now extrapolate to 700+mph. I really do suggest you watch Thunderf00t's video about all the issues with the idea of hyperloop.

Of course they were, some of the earliest cars were electric. Tesla has either generated or demonstrated sufficient interest to spur a surge in development of EVs, which may be the biggest contribution of the company to the planet.



And Tesla saw those developments as a way to make a practical daily EV for a cost that was competitive with the ICE market. Just because they didn't start at the beginning doesn't mean they haven't contributed. Everyone stands on the shoulders of the giants who came before them.
I have said many times the one thing that Musk did right was make EV's into 'real' cars. Though really the biggest "breakthrough" he had was to position them as futuristic luxury cars as opposed to miserable little city runabouts. This way he went after a segment that is likely to have many early adopters and not be particularly price conscious. Other manufacturers missed the boat on that one but as far as making a mainstream EV the jury is still very much out


But Tesla is the one investing in the continued development and making it attractive. Just because solar cells existed and batteries existed doesn't take away from the solar shingles or the packaging of all the parts together into something that is easily marketable and easily installed on residences. If you wanted a solar battery system with net metering before, you would have had to source everything yourself and build it yourself - at least in the vast majority of the country. Tesla has made it so you can order the system you want out of a catalog and have it installed in a matter of weeks. It takes longer to get the power company to give the approval to turn the system on than it does to install it.
What makes you think that others weren't/aren't working on similar solutions? My point is that Musk is riding the wave, not creating it.




Being cocky and arrogant often goes hand in hand with ambition.
Being cocky and arrogant makes him not look at all the work that was done before him, or passing ideas off as his own when they are literally as old as aviation. He isn't standing on shoulders of giants nearly as much as he should be.
The S is a large sedan, so compare it to the Taurus, Impala, Avalon, and others in the same class. These are not supposed to be performance cars, but due to the nature of electric motors, they do perform very well. For the vast majority of my driving, a Tesla would be more than adequate.
No the S is a luxury car so we compare it to BMW 7 series or the MB S class.
 
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Blind_Io

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What does the S offer that the Taurus doesn't, other than a spiffy air purifier? The BMW and Merc are lauded for their interiors, while everyone in here is bitching about the Tesla interiors. So maybe it isn't a luxury car.

People complain he is doing what everyone has done before, making him derivitive; then complain that he isn't using the research done by people before him. Make up your mind.

Also, I don't recall NASA landing a reusuable rocket ass-first on a boat, or did I miss that one?
 
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DARPA managed to do that on land back in the 90s. NASA killed that project.

SpaceX did it on a boat because that's actually less risky and more likely to result in recoverable parts if it goes wrong.
 

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What does the S offer that the Taurus doesn't, other than a spiffy air purifier? The BMW and Merc are lauded for their interiors, while everyone in here is bitching about the Tesla interiors. So maybe it isn't a luxury car.
In price it is.

People complain he is doing what everyone has done before, making him derivitive; then complain that he isn't using the research done by people before him. Make up your mind.
He is being derivative AND doing a bad job, it's fine to be derivative and do it well. Aside from the Model S having QC issues it's actually a good example of a well done derivative product.
Also, I don't recall NASA landing a reusuable rocket ass-first on a boat, or did I miss that one?
NASA managed to land a nuclear powered tank on another fucking planet with no communication from Earth whatsoever. Hell Russians had a fully automated shuttle in late 80s - the Buran program, which was actually going to be launched from an airplane and in testing orbited and landed with no human intervention.
 

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Space X isn't trying to land a rover or an aerodynamic winged craft. They are landing a rocket. Ass-first. On an autonomous ship. In the middle of the freakin' ocean.

All anyone can say is "yeah, but other agencies did cool stuff too". No shit, and they did it with state resources. Space X is doing the same level stuff on their own and plan to make a profit. As for the QA problems, everyone knows that a first model year car has teething problems, this is that, plus the problems of a new company building a whole new product that is unlike anything they (or anyone) have built before. Everyone point and laugh at the guy who isn't perfect right out of the gate.

Listen to yourselves, it's like you want Tesla and SpaceX to fail.
 

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Listen to yourselves, it's like you want Tesla and SpaceX to fail.
I thought that was a given... :|

I will happily admit the interior of the model S is not something I would be happy with from a car of that price point. But then again, you have see it for what it is: the second model ever from basically a "startup" automotive player - for that, it is very impressive. Just look at other young automotive companies that are trying to get into the mass market and their cars - even while producing more models, more cars, they're still not improving in the way tesla are (even if accounting for the price of the vehicles in question). For example, I've driven both a model S and a BYD e6, which is a 50k? car btw, before anyone comes with the argument of cheap chinese shit... but the BYD is just utterly hopeless. I can't judge on the model 3 interior apart from the styling, of course... but neither can any of you guys :dunno:

Also: how are reusable rockets related to a mass market EV? Oh right, ...
 

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Hybrids are a stop-gap measure at best.
Hardly. You know what are of research is also moving fast? Synthetic fuels. There are already bio-deriven fuels used in aviation that are competitive with av-gas. I would also argue that a Fuel Cell could be made into plug-in hybrid quite easily as it's technology matures. That being said, petroleum based fuels aren't going away in our lifetimes.
 

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Hardly. You know what are of research is also moving fast? Synthetic fuels.
Why would you need a hybrid then? If you have synthetic fuels, you can just stick with an ICE and screw the expensive hybrid part... you'd still stink up the cities with NOx, particulate matter and all that stuff. Can't change that, despite the fact that your synthetic fuel is theoretically CO2-neutral.
 

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Space X isn't trying to land a rover or an aerodynamic winged craft. They are landing a rocket. Ass-first. On an autonomous ship. In the middle of the freakin' ocean.

All anyone can say is "yeah, but other agencies did cool stuff too". No shit, and they did it with state resources. Space X is doing the same level stuff on their own and plan to make a profit.
That's exactly the problem right there, it was cool, it was *really* cool but it was and is completely pointless at best and stupid at worst. Vast majority of take off weight for a space vehicle is the fuel, those big ass boosters the shuttle rode on? They are just massive ass fuel tanks. The reason why Soyuz capsules and Shuttles and reusable boosters all land unpowered is because it makes more sense to take just enough fuel to get to orbit + a little bit for maneuvering (in case of re-supply mission) and maximize your payload. Space X rockets sacrifice payload for a cool landing system while others use parachutes to allow for safe return with very little reduction in payload.


As for the QA problems, everyone knows that a first model year car has teething problems, this is that, plus the problems of a new company building a whole new product that is unlike anything they (or anyone) have built before. Everyone point and laugh at the guy who isn't perfect right out of the gate.
Teething problems are normal, misaligned panels on a car you been making for what 5 years now, is not.
Here is a little sampling of a delivery checklist of what I would consider major issues with *any* new car - source: https://forums.tesla.com/forum/forums/delivery-checklist-and-owners-guide-google-doc-your-use

All doors close properly (door misalignment reported)
All handles work properly (various handle problems reported)
UMC latches and unlatches without problems
Potential Problems - can only be found when driving
Wind noise due to misaligned windows
Was wondering if you could add to the "potential problems that can only be found when driving" section, the issue around buffeting caused by the trunk screws not being properly adjusted.
Listen to yourselves, it's like you want Tesla and SpaceX to fail.
I don't care if they live or die, what I care is when people get caught up in hype and things like countries banning ICE cars (or at least non-hybrids) because they think that because a few people can get along with a Tesla everyone should be able to.


The problem with EM himself is not so much his personality but that his a geek, he either sees something that is cool or thinks something up that sounds cool and runs with it. But he doesn't seem to consider the actual practicality issues (or physics in case of hyperloop). SpaceX is hella cool, hyperloop is hella cool but it doesn't make them necessarily good.

- - - Updated - - -

I can't judge on the model 3 interior apart from the styling, of course... but neither can any of you guys :dunno:
I can judge it on ergonomics easily enough, they are shit because everything is controlled from a big ass touch screen. It's yet another one of those "wouldn't it be cool if..." things that make no sense at all.
Also: how are reusable rockets related to a mass market EV? Oh right, ...
via Imgflip Meme Generator

- - - Updated - - -

Why would you need a hybrid then? If you have synthetic fuels, you can just stick with an ICE and screw the expensive hybrid part... you'd still stink up the cities with NOx, particulate matter and all that stuff. Can't change that, despite the fact that your synthetic fuel is theoretically CO2-neutral.
NOx and particulates are only an issue in diseasels, have not been a problem with gasoline engines since catalytic converters were developed. Plug in hybrids make sense as a stop gap measure, you get some amount of range that is electric only and for the times when you are out of battery you get to run on ICE. Look at that video I posted about limitations of Lithium batteries, unless we have a new tech for batteries BEVs are simply not viable as a general ICE replacement.
 

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Listen to yourselves, it's like you want Tesla and SpaceX to fail.
Sweet! When can we expect that to happen? :D Because it will. LOL Well, at least I hope Tesla fails. SpaceX I'm indifferent too. Until they actually land on at least the Moon, with people, and a rover I'll withhold my judgement and keep my skepticism. :)

Why would you need a hybrid then? If you have synthetic fuels, you can just stick with an ICE and screw the expensive hybrid part... you'd still stink up the cities with NOx, particulate matter and all that stuff. Can't change that, despite the fact that your synthetic fuel is theoretically CO2-neutral.
So why not have all fuel sources alternative or not try and fight it out in the market since we are a market driven planet? Let the consumer decide what the fuck they want to own and drive? If John Q. Public wants something give it to them and stop trying to force everyone to conform to a few's hippie tree-hugging opinions on what should exist. Besides, too much focus is on electricity which is a crock of shit so why not have the scientific community work harder and develop more viable sources of propelling an automobile and let the market sort it out. If you focus on one thing only you'll miss out on the other stuff.

FYI, Hydrogen and solar should be where we are spending most of our research on if people really want something "green" and or less impactful on the environment. Ask yourself, why the hell do EVs not have a solar panel on the roof? Granted it won't fully charge anything but that will mean a longer range and thus less fossil fuels consumed from power plants used to charge that battery. Yes it'll take a while for Hydrogen but the endgame is a MUCH better alternative than electricity. Plus it is still combustion so these automobile will still make great noises. Just food for thought. :D
 

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So why not have all fuel sources alternative or not try and fight it out in the market since we are a market driven planet? Let the consumer decide what the fuck they want to own and drive? If John Q. Public wants something give it to them and stop trying to force everyone to conform to a few's hippie tree-hugging opinions on what should exist. Besides, too much focus is on electricity which is a crock of shit so why not have the scientific community work harder and develop more viable sources of propelling an automobile and let the market sort it out. If you focus on one thing only you'll miss out on the other stuff.
The idea of taking a vehicle to get places is stupid in the first place, all it does is create congestion and wastes valuable space that can be used for something better. Why not dump the whole stupid shit altogether and concentrate on creating teleportation instead? No more having to huddle together in cities/towns, could live in the middle of nowhere and never be out of touch.
 

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So why not have all fuel sources alternative or not try and fight it out in the market since we are a market driven planet? Let the consumer decide what the fuck they want to own and drive? If John Q. Public wants something give it to them ...
I will just leave this here

Henry Ford said:
If I had asked people what they wanted, they would have said faster horses.
 
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