Unveiled: The Teslerr Model 3

[GRtak]

That video focuses on Li-io and does not talk about charging times at all. What about Lithium Poylmer batteries? They are far lighter and have similar energy densities. It also does not touch on technologies that are still somewhere between the lab and being manufactured. At the very end he mentions some other technologies such as super capacitors, but dismissively. Maybe we will figure out fusion!


By the way, charging time is not directly linked to capacity alone. If that were the case, my lithium polymer batteries would not charge quicker than the Li-io batteries. It took an hour less and lasted almost exactly the same amount of time(within a few minutes at most).

 

[prizrak]

That video focuses on Li-io and does not talk about charging times at all. What about Lithium Poylmer batteries? They are far lighter and have similar energy densities. It also does not touch on technologies that are still somewhere between the lab and being manufactured. At the very end he mentions some other technologies such as super capacitors, but dismissively. Maybe we will figure out fusion!


By the way, charging time is not directly linked to capacity alone. If that were the case, my lithium polymer batteries would not charge quicker than the Li-io batteries. It took an hour less and lasted almost exactly the same amount of time(within a few minutes at most).

Lithium polymer is Li-ion, all it is is having a gel for electrolyte instead of a liquid. Batteries is basic chemistry, you have an element on one side and another on another side, they engage in a chemical reaction via a medium (electrolyte) which causes electrons to be released. You charge the battery by forcing electrons back into one side (I forget the actual terms here been a while since chemistry) so that they can travel again to the opposite end. The reason everything is Lithium is because it is the absolute best element for one side of the battery, the best one for the other side is Sulfur but there are serious issues with using it so it's not very likely.

Yep they don't talk about stuff that is in labs because at this point it's not exactly possible to know how they will turn out. Despite all the cool stuff you can do with nanotubes, they are extremely far from practical applications, even if all the engineering works price matters. One of the biggest reasons why HFC is so rare (you actually can't buy an HFEV only lease and only in CA) is because it uses a lot of platinum making it quite expensive. A battery that would cost couple of hundred grand isn't going to be making it into your mainstream sedan no matter how amazing it is.

They don't mention charging times it's true. You are wrong about capacity and charging times though, put an iPad on a 1A charger and it will take something like 7 hours to charge it, would be around 2-3 for an iPhone (this will hold true for any battery I just have the most experience with the iDevices). To charge faster you have to literally amp up your charger but there is a catch, it's an exothermal reaction meaning it puts out heat, charge too fast and you can blow up your battery. Not only that but charge/discharge cycles degrade performance of your battery and faster the charge the more wear you have.

The other problem is that it being a chemical reaction you have to worry about ambient temps, the colder it is the less energy you will have, that's even before all the creature comforts. Too high an ambient and the battery needs to be cooled or can be damaged so now you are using battery for cooling the battery.

That's not to say that BEV Tesla or otherwise is not a workable solution for some people but it does work against that idea that everyone will have electric cars in 20 years, technology is just not there yet. Maybe it will eventually get there, though not with Lithium batteries, but I wouldn't bet on it.

 

[GRtak]

I never said a larger battery of the same type would charge as fast as the smaller one.

 

[Cellos88GT]

Electrified trunk roads, small hybrid package for the final miles. Won't cover 100% of all applications, but should cover a big chunk of the total mileage - think port to factory, hub to hub, bottom of mine pit to the top.

...or just have a hybrid (Wrightspeed) or fuel cell (Toyota/Hino) truck. Electrified roads make no sense from a scalability/maintenance standpoint.

 

[NooDle]

AFAIK, the Bolt and Teslas are all configurable. You can set the car to either coast when you lift off the accelerator, or you can have it employ some regen. I like the idea of the Bolt's paddle, because then you can set the pedal to mild regen and the paddle to strong regen, giving you more granular control.

Although to be fair, I haven't driven a Bolt or any of the Teslas, so I don't have first-hand experience with either setup.

I've driven a couple of electrical cars, and all of them had this feature where you could adjust the regen intensity (Mitsubishi iMiev, eGolf, eUp, Tesla S)
And in pretty much all of them I just set it to max regen and never needed to touch the brakes....

It takes some getting used to, as it can be quite jerky if you're one of those "on/off the throttle" people, but if you let go gradually it's just like normal braking.
Works fine though...

Just wondering why a hypothetical electrician needs an F150. He'd probably be better off with a van, and you can have an electric one of those if you absolutely have to.

I could probably switch to electric, but the only electric car that meets my needs and wants for range and size is a high-spec Model S or X and those are waaaay way way out of my price range.

I would love an E-Golf as a daily driver to move my ass to and from work, but as my only car? Nope.

I still believe that in 20 odd years most (if not all) people will have affordable electric cars available to them.
Just a few years ago, the first real electric car on the market was the Leaf, with 150 km range and costing around 35k? here.
Now we're just 1 generation down the line and that range has doubled, nearly tripled with a slightly lower price.

If we keep evolving like this it won't be long before it's a real possibility for everyone except for people who do thousands of kms every week without stoppint (8h sleep = 8hr charge time, which should be sufficient)

 

[prizrak]

I never said a larger battery of the same type would charge as fast as the smaller one.

Then I misread.

- - - Updated - - -

I still believe that in 20 odd years most (if not all) people will have affordable electric cars available to them.

That belief is incogruent with current technological progress.

Just a few years ago, the first real electric car on the market was the Leaf, with 150 km range and costing around 35k? here.
Now we're just 1 generation down the line and that range has doubled, nearly tripled with a slightly lower price.

That's a fallacy, technology tends to plateau once it gains maturity. Moore's law held up true for decades but is widely accepted to no longer apply. In a similar manner, once turbo jet was available we went from "just faster than props" to 3x the speed of sound but have not been able to progress past that. (and even then only a couple of specialized planes managed to hit mach 3)

If we keep evolving like this it won't be long before it's a real possibility for everyone except for people who do thousands of kms every week without stoppint (8h sleep = 8hr charge time, which should be sufficient)

You are still assuming that there are enough charging stations for people to use, which is just not very likely to happen.

Here is a typical Brooklyn street, if you notice pretty much none of these houses have driveways, that's a lot of public chargers to install.
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.667...4!1sAV4mWYOtG7mihs4mgNbDnQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

 

[Spectre]

...or just have a hybrid (Wrightspeed) or fuel cell (Toyota/Hino) truck. Electrified roads make no sense from a scalability/maintenance standpoint.

And have already been tried in America. The electric trolleybus (bus with overhead power lines connected with a pantograph) was deployed in many cities around the US from the 30s-70s and eventually most locales finally shelved it because it was a huge pain in the ass. Of 65 or so trolleybus systems ever deployed in the US (some quite extensive), only five remain - San Francisco, Seattle, Dayton, Philadelphia and Boston. Of those, most are pretty much jokes; one of the biggest problems is that if there's a problem with the route, like construction, an accident, etc., the whole line has to be shut down or replaced with ICE buses because the electric buses can't divert. There's no significant flexibility.

 

[prizrak]

And have already been tried in America. The electric trolleybus (bus with overhead power lines connected with a pantograph) was deployed in many cities around the US from the 30s-70s and eventually most locales finally shelved it because it was a huge pain in the ass. Of 65 or so trolleybus systems ever deployed in the US (some quite extensive), only five remain - San Francisco, Seattle, Dayton, Philadelphia and Boston. Of those, most are pretty much jokes; one of the biggest problems is that if there's a problem with the route, like construction, an accident, etc., the whole line has to be shut down or replaced with ICE buses because the electric buses can't divert. There's no significant flexibility.

Russia had a bunch of trolleys like that (still does I think) they would constantly cause traffic by taking a turn too hard or hitting a bump and the pantograph dropping off the line and then the driver had to get out and try and reconnect the damn thing.

 

[JCE]

hitting a bump and the pantograph dropping off the line and then the driver had to get out and try and reconnect the damn thing.

*cue Benny Hill music*

 

[Spectre]

Russia had a bunch of trolleys like that (still does I think) they would constantly cause traffic by taking a turn too hard or hitting a bump and the pantograph dropping off the line and then the driver had to get out and try and reconnect the damn thing.

Every time I've tried to use one in San Francisco on the few occasions I was there, it had similar mechanical problems and I ended up finding an alternative solution. I would report on how good or bad Seattle's was except on the three times I was there and in position to use it the transit workers were on strike or the system was closed for maintenance.

 

[NooDle]

Then I misread.

- - - Updated - - -


That belief is incogruent with current technological progress.

That's a fallacy, technology tends to plateau once it gains maturity. Moore's law held up true for decades but is widely accepted to no longer apply. In a similar manner, once turbo jet was available we went from "just faster than props" to 3x the speed of sound but have not been able to progress past that. (and even then only a couple of specialized planes managed to hit mach 3)


You are still assuming that there are enough charging stations for people to use, which is just not very likely to happen.

Here is a typical Brooklyn street, if you notice pretty much none of these houses have driveways, that's a lot of public chargers to install.
https://www.google.com/maps/@40.667...4!1sAV4mWYOtG7mihs4mgNbDnQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Just get a garage like normal people!
Alternatively wasn't there someone with the idea of putting charge points into every (already installed) street light?

Won't work for every application, but still a good step forwards

 

[NecroJoe]

Of those, most are pretty much jokes; one of the biggest problems is that if there's a problem with the route, like construction, an accident, etc., the whole line has to be shut down or replaced with ICE buses because the electric buses can't divert. There's no significant flexibility.

This is simply wrong, at least in San Francisco. Perhaps in the other cities you mention that's the case, but the SF MUNI electric busses are capable of running off-the-grid (battery) specifically for circumnavigating accidents, traffic diversions due to construction or conventions/street fairs, etc. Or, even just to go between sections of the route for which there aren't enough busses to validate the need for the overhead power to traverse. At a stop, you'll see the driver hop out, pull the connections down, then continue on in less than a minute.

These busses have proven to be cheaper to run, have less down-time, projected longer life, have better performance in the hills, run quieter, and their power is almost exclusively from a hydroelectric source.

 

[prizrak]

Just get a garage like normal people!

That's easy for me, might be harder for across the pond folks

Alternatively wasn't there someone with the idea of putting charge points into every (already installed) street light?

Won't work for every application, but still a good step forwards

There was however there are many issues with it, like on my street there are a whole of 4 street lights and as Spectre pointed out those tend to be turned off during the day.

 

[Spectre]

This is simply wrong, at least in San Francisco. Perhaps in the other cities you mention that's the case, but the SF MUNI electric busses are capable of running off-the-grid (battery) specifically for circumnavigating accidents, traffic diversions due to construction or conventions/street fairs, etc. Or, even just to go between sections of the route for which there aren't enough busses to validate the need for the overhead power to traverse. At a stop, you'll see the driver hop out, pull the connections down, then continue on in less than a minute.

These busses have proven to be cheaper to run, have less down-time, projected longer life, have better performance in the hills, run quieter, and their power is almost exclusively from a hydroelectric source.

I would say that this is how they're *supposed* to work; reality can be quite different. Of the last four times I rode one (or should I say I attempted to ride one) in SF over the past 12 years or so, one went three blocks then the battery system died completely while trying to take a detour. Another was still circulating during a power outage and failed in the middle of the street when the battery ran out (to be fair, that was hardly its fault). A third started smoking from the battery compartment and the last one just died in the middle of a street while still connected to power for no apparent reason. You'd think they were Italian.

Edit: Other cities have found out the promises of cheaper to run, lower downtime, longer life-cycle and better performance have all either been flat out lies or offset by increased cost in other areas, which is why out of 65 systems only 5 are left.

 

[Perc]

Granted, I live in a country where some cars cost an arm and a leg for seemingly no reason... the usual Finnish "fuck you, that's why" tax that all new cars get slapped with can't possibly account for the 370Z roadster costing 83k?. I can't imagine them selling a single one at that price point. 83k for a Nissan? Really?

Anyway, I just looked it up today and for the price of what they charge (hah) for a Nissan Leaf, you can have a Micra and 20k? left over for fuel. :lol: If I did the maths correctly, that's about 200k km's worth of driving.

That's the new Micra, the one that's hot off the press and actually looks like something you'd want to drive.

 

[NecroJoe]

I would say that this is how they're *supposed* to work; reality can be quite different. Of the last four times I rode one (or should I say I attempted to ride one) in SF over the past 12 years or so, one went three blocks then the battery system died completely while trying to take a detour. Another was still circulating during a power outage and failed in the middle of the street when the battery ran out (to be fair, that was hardly its fault). A third started smoking from the battery compartment and the last one just died in the middle of a street while still connected to power for no apparent reason. You'd think they were Italian.

Edit: Other cities have found out the promises of cheaper to run, lower downtime, longer life-cycle and better performance have all either been flat out lies or offset by increased cost in other areas, which is why out of 65 systems only 5 are left.

:lol: Well, for what It's worth, I ride an electric MUNI bus nearly every day for the past 6 years, and I can count the times there have been "breakdowns" on one hand, and could still pick my nose with a free finger...and this includes the route I use about 40% of the time having to navigate around Union Square, which seems to be closed down for a week for construction or special events about once every other month.

 

[Spectre]

That's easy for me, might be harder for across the pond folks


There was however there are many issues with it, like on my street there are a whole of 4 street lights and as Spectre pointed out those tend to be turned off during the day.

Since we're recapping, also this, which is a very common layout in America:



Where are you supposed to park your car to get it charged off the light post, again? :lol:

 

[prizrak]

:lol: Well, for what It's worth, I ride an electric MUNI bus nearly every day for the past 6 years, and I can count the times there have been "breakdowns" on one hand, and could still pick my nose with a free finger...and this includes the route I use about 40% of the time having to navigate around Union Square, which seems to be closed down for a week for construction or special events about once every other month.

Spectre breaks trolleys? I wonder how much it costs to maintain all those power lines and such compared to say hybrid buses NYC runs

 

[NecroJoe]

Spectre breaks trolleys? I wonder how much it costs to maintain all those power lines and such compared to say hybrid buses NYC runs

That would be interesting. This same transit system also uses Diesel Hybrids, so they would have apples-to-apples data. If only they ever released data like that...

 

[Spectre]

If only they ever released data like that...

If data proving the electric buses were cheaper than the hybrids existed, MUNI would have been screaming it from the rafters. As it is, the lack of any sort of release like that rather does speak volumes.