Unveiled: The Teslerr Model 3

narf

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Understood, good to see it's not a massive drain.
To math at it from a different angle, an AC compressor should need a low single digit kW amount to run... and unless you're parked in the sun in Arizona it's not going to run 100% of the time. If your average were 1kW, naive maths says a 75 should give you three days' worth of AC... a whole day if you average 3kW. Given that driving will empty the battery in probably less than one up to 29 hours... well, realistically, up to eight or so hours you've got 1-3 days vs 1-8 hours.

Another angle, it'll need 200-600Wh or so to do a kilometre. An hour of AC at an average of 1kW is *drumroll* 1kWh, 2-5km or so of range lost per hour.
 

prizrak

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The Teslerr Model 3

To math at it from a different angle, an AC compressor should need a low single digit kW amount to run... and unless you're parked in the sun in Arizona it's not going to run 100% of the time. If your average were 1kW, naive maths says a 75 should give you three days' worth of AC... a whole day if you average 3kW. Given that driving will empty the battery in probably less than one up to 29 hours... well, realistically, up to eight or so hours you've got 1-3 days vs 1-8 hours.

Another angle, it'll need 200-600Wh or so to do a kilometre. An hour of AC at an average of 1kW is *drumroll* 1kWh, 2-5km or so of range lost per hour.
Interesting and well illustrated. I was coming from the angle that on low powered cars A/C tends to make a noticeable difference in acceleration meaning it has pretty decent power drain.
 

narf

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Interesting and well illustrated. I was coming from the angle that on low powered cars A/C tends to make a noticeable difference in acceleration meaning it has pretty decent power drain.
That's slightly different.
First of all, that's felt while the compressor is currently running, say 3-5kW - not felt as an average over time, say 1-2kW. When you set off in a heated up car with your AC at full blast it'll obviously be much higher than the long-distance average.
Second, you're likely not at peak power all the time, even when accelerating. Assuming the AC drain were constant, your relative impact will increase - probably up to noticeable levels.
Some guesstimated numbers, assuming a 75kW car and 3kW compressor that's 4% off peak power - if you're at say 3krpm mid-acceleration and think "boy, my AC is slowing me down" you're likely at around 50% of peak power, pushing your AC percentage to 8%... that could be noticeable, especially with your cognitive bias after just turning the AC to full blast.

This guy comes to a similar conclusion, a high single digit percent impact at the mid-rev range and full throttle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue6DsRncyfI
 

prizrak

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That's slightly different.
First of all, that's felt while the compressor is currently running, say 3-5kW - not felt as an average over time, say 1-2kW. When you set off in a heated up car with your AC at full blast it'll obviously be much higher than the long-distance average.
Second, you're likely not at peak power all the time, even when accelerating. Assuming the AC drain were constant, your relative impact will increase - probably up to noticeable levels.
Some guesstimated numbers, assuming a 75kW car and 3kW compressor that's 4% off peak power - if you're at say 3krpm mid-acceleration and think "boy, my AC is slowing me down" you're likely at around 50% of peak power, pushing your AC percentage to 8%... that could be noticeable, especially with your cognitive bias after just turning the AC to full blast.

This guy comes to a similar conclusion, a high single digit percent impact at the mid-rev range and full throttle: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ue6DsRncyfI
Interesting I hadn't considered that, I suppose that's why neither of my cars notice A/C much since both have decent low end tq so it's not as drastic
 

narf

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Your GT at least is also far from 75kW peak power :burnrubber:

Modern turbos somewhat alleviate that low-rev lack of power too, my Beetle makes peak power from 4500-6200rpm and only needs 2200rpm for 50%. At 1500rpm it already makes 35% of peak :burnrubber:
 
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prizrak

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Your GT at least is also far from 75kW peak power :burnrubber:

Modern turbos somewhat alleviate that low-rev lack of power too, my Beetle makes peak power from 4500-6200rpm and only needs 2200rpm for 50%. At 1500rpm it already makes 35% of peak :burnrubber:
Yeah even my A4 didn't notice the A/C being on at all
 

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Yeah even my A4 didn't notice the A/C being on at all
The only car I ever had where the AC switching on and off was noticable (drop in revs, quick dimming of lights) is my current C1.
And that's mainly because the AC pump is roughly the same size of the entire engine.....

Even so, it's only for a second or so when the system turns itself on, not while it's running
 

prizrak

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The Teslerr Model 3

The only car I ever had where the AC switching on and off was noticable (drop in revs, quick dimming of lights) is my current C1.
And that's mainly because the AC pump is roughly the same size of the entire engine.....

Even so, it's only for a second or so when the system turns itself on, not while it's running
All cars I ever had idle at higher RPMs with A/C on, so it's always noticeable in a sense. In terms of power drop it was always very obvious in the Subaru, but I'm not sure if it were due to low power or just old less efficient compressor. It was same thing in my parents Buick which was also built in same year.
 

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The only cars I've ever had where I noticed the AC switching off and on was my '94 Volvo 850 and the V70 after that, both of which had the same engine and transmission. And I could only really tell if I took the 4spd auto down to third and let the torque converter lock itself. In normal D mode it didn't lock until 80km/h and by then you couldn't tell anymore.

I thought most cars these days have a Variable Displacement Compressor anyway. You can't really tell when these engage because it doesn't have a clutch. Mom's 2005-ish Corolla certainly had a VDC, as does our Renault van at work, as did my 2012 Octavia. I think my Insignia does too. I haven't heard the clutch click once so far, anyway.
 

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Honestly there is no reason why all types can't coexist, as long as we are given an actual choice and not forced into any specific type.
This is my point. Let the consumer market fucking decide.
 

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Look at the EV1 to see where that ended up. Only one remains in the hands of a private owner despite most that had a lease wanting to buy the car they had leased.


There are times when corporations need to be pushed into doing the right thing. Think where we would be if we still used leased fuel, or if emissions standards were not improved.
 

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The Teslerr Model 3

Look at the EV1 to see where that ended up. Only one remains in the hands of a private owner despite most that had a lease wanting to buy the car they had leased.
I remember reading about the EV1 and IIRC it was essentially a public beta so at the end of it GM took the car back. At the time they decided it wasn't profitable for them to make it into anything. Considering that even today EVs cost significantly more than comparable ICE cars that is not surprising.
There are times when corporations need to be pushed into doing the right thing. Think where we would be if we still used leased fuel, or if emissions standards were not improved.
Except that in this case the gov't has created favorable conditions for EVs, Teslas very existence and success is proof of that.

There is no doubt that sometimes govt has to reign businesses in, however there are right and wrong ways to do certain things. Banning a propulsion system is the former, incentivizing people towards a "better" system is the latter.
 
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narf

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Banning is the right way nudging the wrong way? I guess you meant the opposite :p
As of now, nudging exists and bans don't... Well, for leaded fuel vehicles it does, but we're not arguing about that, right?
 

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I remember reading about the EV1 and IIRC it was essentially a public beta so at the end of it GM took the car back. At the time they decided it wasn't profitable for them to make it into anything. Considering that even today EVs cost significantly more than comparable ICE cars that is not surprising.

Except that in this case the gov't has created favorable conditions for EVs, Teslas very existence and success is proof of that.

There is no doubt that sometimes govt has to reign businesses in, however there are right and wrong ways to do certain things. Banning a propulsion system is the former, incentivizing people towards a "better" system is the latter.

Creating the favorable conditions for EVs is an incentive. So what is wrong with it again?
 

prizrak

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Banning is the right way nudging the wrong way? I guess you meant the opposite :p
As of now, nudging exists and bans don't... Well, for leaded fuel vehicles it does, but we're not arguing about that, right?
I would say you are correct ;) Bans were announced, not yet in effect but have been announced.

- - - Updated - - -

Creating the favorable conditions for EVs is an incentive. So what is wrong with it again?
I seem to have reversed what I was trying to say in my head, so I will be more specific. Tax breaks, allowing EVs to run in HOV lanes, no congestion charge (or lower tolls) I am perfectly fine with. Saying "by 2040 UK will not allow sale of ICE cars" I am not.
 

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Tax breaks, allowing EVs to run in HOV lanes, no congestion charge (or lower tolls) I am perfectly fine with. Saying "by 2040 UK will not allow sale of ICE cars" I am not.
This is my point I'd like to make as well, so I'll just quote yours. :D
 

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I fear this thread is closing in on general agreement. We should lock it before it forms a black hole or something.
 

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Tesla Q3 2017 Vehicle Deliveries and Production
Tesla's plan was to produce 30 in July, about 100 in August and about 1500 in September - in total there were 260 built, 220 out of those were delivered. Very slow production start for the Model 3...
And while Tesla was struggling to deliver 115 Model 3s in September, Chevy sold 2632 Bolts. Tesla fanboys keep telling me the Bolt is "just a compliance car", so what does that make the 3? :tease:
 
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