The Trump Presidency - how I stopped worrying and learned to love the Hair

Cellos88GT

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But Lev's point (and one I agree with) is that EOs in themselves are a problem. They are very difficult to override and have too much power on their own.
The point both of you are missing are the need for EOs in light of a Congress that is outright obstructionist. It would be one thing if the president bypasses the Congress and signs surprise EOs (Trump) but it's quite another when everyone is made aware of the President's desired plans, hopes Congress can carry out those plans but is forced to carry them out himself because the GOP is too obsessed with partisan politics than the good of the people.

I blame the assholes Mitch McConnell, Boehner, and Paul Ryan for Obama's EOs, not Obama. Besides he made signed fewer EOs than both Bush and Clinton. Hating Obama because of his EOs is another veil for racism, plain and simple.
 

prizrak

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But companies like Apple, Google, Tesla, etc. employ engineers and scientists from universities.
Umm.. In the sense that those people have gone to universities, yes. But they are not still in a university. Also if I'm reading this correctly (and I might not be) this only applies to actual government agencies.
 

_HighVoltage_

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Umm.. In the sense that those people have gone to universities, yes. But they are not still in a university. Also if I'm reading this correctly (and I might not be) this only applies to actual government agencies.
Yes, so far...I mean, it's only been a week :)

The point is, if the administration continues on its current path of gagging scientists and proposing to vet research, it will impact universities, and that in turn will impact students and their research. A lot of graduate students in engineering and the scientists work as assistants and they depend on the research of the lead professor. If the government gags the lead professor, or tells him/her what they should/should not be researching, that also channels down to the students, which upon graduation are recruited by companies like Apple, Tesla and others.

Most progress in science happens as a result of the freedom to explore and test new ideas and concepts. If the governments starts to decide the direction of scientific research (and block some of it), we will be in trouble. Bigly.
 

chaos386

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Umm.. In the sense that those people have gone to universities, yes. But they are not still in a university. Also if I'm reading this correctly (and I might not be) this only applies to actual government agencies.
Corporate researchers collaborate with university researchers all the time (I've been on both sides of this). In the US, a huge amount of funding for graduate research comes from NSF and DOE grants. My own studies made heavy use of DOE-funded facilities.
 

prizrak

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Yeah, but up until now everybody equated alternative facts with lies while it should read opinions. The problem is that his opinions are so cemented that he sees them as alternative facts.
I always read it that way actually, that he treated his opinions as facts.

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The point both of you are missing are the need for EOs in light of a Congress that is outright obstructionist. It would be one thing if the president bypasses the Congress and signs surprise EOs (Trump) but it's quite another when everyone is made aware of the President's desired plans, hopes Congress can carry out those plans but is forced to carry them out himself because the GOP is too obsessed with partisan politics than the good of the people.

I blame the assholes Mitch McConnell, Boehner, and Paul Ryan for Obama's EOs, not Obama. Besides he made signed fewer EOs than both Bush and Clinton.
No that's the thing, you are missing our point. The EO has too much power period, currently this is how an EO would have to be bypassed:
1) Congress passes a law that invalidates the EO
2) President vetos the law (for obvious reason)
3) Congress has to override the veto with 2/3 majority vote

As you can imagine #3 is quite difficult to achieve and is not hugely likely.
Hating Obama because of his EOs is another veil for racism, plain and simple.
I don't think Lev said he hates Obama over EOs, I know I certainly don't the point both of us are making is that EOs are too powerful.

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Corporate researchers collaborate with university researchers all the time (I've been on both sides of this). In the US, a huge amount of funding for graduate research comes from NSF and DOE grants. My own studies made heavy use of DOE-funded facilities.
I am well aware but again for the time being the restriction is only on scientists working for government agencies not government funded "private" research or even government owned universities (though there are no Fed owned unis far as I know)

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Yes, so far...I mean, it's only been a week :)

The point is, if the administration continues on its current path of gagging scientists and proposing to vet research, it will impact universities, and that in turn will impact students and their research. A lot of graduate students in engineering and the scientists work as assistants and they depend on the research of the lead professor. If the government gags the lead professor, or tells him/her what they should/should not be researching, that also channels down to the students, which upon graduation are recruited by companies like Apple, Tesla and others.

Most progress in science happens as a result of the freedom to explore and test new ideas and concepts. If the governments starts to decide the direction of scientific research (and block some of it), we will be in trouble. Bigly.
No argument on any of that but do keep in mind that this is not unprecedented and we still have some science left ;)
 

DanRoM

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Yeah, but up until now everybody equated alternative facts with lies while it should read opinions.
You are wrong (or alternate correct :p ) here. There is no such thing as an opinion over numbers, for instance.

Trumps strategy, assuming he has one and isn't just a bambling madman (and I can't decide which is worse), is a plain and simple Denial of Service attack on the people trying to correct his false statements. The goal is to make everyone so busy with fending off his bullshit that nobody has the capacity to resist his policies in a meaningful manner.
 

LeVeL

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Hating Obama because of his EOs is another veil for racism, plain and simple.
Wait, what? The reason you don't understand checks and balances and are being an ignorant hypocrite is... racism?
 

NecroJoe

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I haven't seen the whole video/interview, but am I wrong in thinking that "alternative facts" was probably a term that was thought up and practiced to mean something like, "Sure, oranges have a lot of sugar, but they also are a good source of Vitamin C"...but instead it got turned around and used at the wrong time?
 

PelicanHazard

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I haven't seen the whole video/interview, but am I wrong in thinking that "alternative facts" was probably a term that was thought up and practiced to mean something like, "Sure, oranges have a lot of sugar, but they also are a good source of Vitamin C"...but instead it got turned around and used at the wrong time?
I think you're giving Conway too much credit. There's enough of a pause while she's speaking that she probably just came up with it on the fly as a shitty excuse (video starts at 1:34):


Todd-Conway Interview Transcript said:
Todd: You did not answer the question of why the President asked the White House press secretary to come out in front of the podium, for the first time, and utter a falsehood. Why did he do that? It undermines the credibility of the entire White House press office -

Conway: No, it doesn't.

Todd: -on day one.

Conway: Don't be so- Don't be so overly dramatic about it, Chuck. What it- You're saying it's a falsehood, and they're giving- Sean Spicer, our press secretary, gave...alternative facts to that. But the point remains-

Todd: Wait a minute-

Conway: -that there's-

Todd: Alternative facts?! Alternative facts? Four of the five facts he uttered-

Conway: Hey, Chuck, why- Hey Chuck-

Todd: The one thing he got right was Zeke Miller - Four of the five facts he uttered were just not true. Look, alternative facts are not facts; they're falsehoods.
To me, it seems pretty clear that it wasn't practiced, she was just trying to deflect without admitting Spicer lied.
 

CD82

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Surely you don't expect other countries to go down with America, do you? A friendship only ever works if both sides do their part of keeping it alive.
The entire relationship between the EU and Greece is build on faked numbers and the EU paying Greece a lot of money (which they might as well just pour into a bottomless pit for all the good it's doing the EU, and the chances of seeing any of that money again, like ever, are zero if not even negative). So yes, a friendship can actually be very one-sided and abusive, even in politics. Especially if the abused side is lacking any spine whatsoever.
 

Cellos88GT

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No that's the thing, you are missing our point. The EO has too much power period, currently this is how an EO would have to be bypassed:
1) Congress passes a law that invalidates the EO
2) President vetos the law (for obvious reason)
3) Congress has to override the veto with 2/3 majority vote

As you can imagine #3 is quite difficult to achieve and is not hugely likely.
I personally don't fault Obama's use of EOs given the cards he was dealt. Trump on the other hand does not have those same cards dealt, he doesn't deserve EO use, he's a self-righteous prick. I don't care if I'm viewed as a hypocrite because of this, Trump is not fit for this job and has no clue what he's doing.
 

Eye-Q

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I think you're giving Conway too much credit. There's enough of a pause while she's speaking that she probably just came up with it on the fly as a shitty excuse (video starts at 1:34):
I guess she wanted to say "alternative views", but then her brain just mashed the "alternative" and the foregoing debate about "facts" together which makes it hilarious...
 

prizrak

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I personally don't fault Obama's use of EOs given the cards he was dealt. Trump on the other hand does not have those same cards dealt, he doesn't deserve EO use, he's a self-righteous prick. I don't care if I'm viewed as a hypocrite because of this, Trump is not fit for this job and has no clue what he's doing.
But see that's irrelevant, if you believe EO power is too much because it can be used to circumvent checks and balances, then such power cannot be justified. Even if it has been used responsibly by some people.
 

Cellos88GT

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But see that's irrelevant, if you believe EO power is too much because it can be used to circumvent checks and balances, then such power cannot be justified. Even if it has been used responsibly by some people.
I guess it only takes one person to ruin it for everybody.
 

chaos386

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I am well aware but again for the time being the restriction is only on scientists working for government agencies not government funded "private" research or even government owned universities (though there are no Fed owned unis far as I know)
Along with the gag orders was a freezing of NSF, etc. grants, and the order could apply to existing grants, as well as stopping new ones. I'll also reiterate: some of my graduate work was done at a DOE-funded lab, and therefore involved working with DOE scientists who now have to get approval before sharing any data.
 

prizrak

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I guess it only takes one person to ruin it for everybody.
It certainly can, considering the effect.

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Along with the gag orders was a freezing of NSF, etc. grants, and the order could apply to existing grants, as well as stopping new ones. I'll also reiterate: some of my graduate work was done at a DOE-funded lab, and therefore involved working with DOE scientists who now have to get approval before sharing any data.
That's quite bad, like I said I am aware that a lot of research is done via grants and working with gov't entities, I have many friends in hardcore science. Hopefully my co-workers are right and this is just a tactic to force Congress to kowtow to his cabinet picks.
 

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Trump Strategist Stephen Bannon Says Media Should ?Keep Its Mouth Shut?


WASHINGTON ? Just days after President Trump spoke of a ?running war?? with the media, his chief White House strategist, Stephen K. Bannon, ratcheted up the attacks, arguing that news organizations had been ?humiliated? by the election outcome and repeatedly describing the media as ?the opposition party? of the current administration.

?The media should be embarrassed and humiliated and keep its mouth shut and just listen for a while,? Mr. Bannon said in an interview on Wednesday.

?I want you to quote this,? Mr. Bannon added. ?The media here is the opposition party. They don?t understand this country. They still do not understand why Donald Trump is the president of the United States.?

The scathing assessment ? delivered by one of Mr. Trump?s most trusted and influential advisers, in the first days of his presidency ? comes at a moment of high tension between the news media and the administration, with skirmishes over the size of Mr. Trump?s inaugural crowd and the president?s false claims that millions of illegal votes by undocumented immigrants swayed the popular vote against him.

Mr. Bannon, who rarely grants interviews to journalists outside of Breitbart News, the provocative right-wing website he ran until August, was echoing comments by Mr. Trump last weekend, when the president said he was in ?a running war? with the media and called journalists ?among the most dishonest people on earth.? Mr. Bannon?s remarks added to the growing acrimony between the press and a president who made attacks on the media a rallying point of his election campaign.

Among Mr. Trump?s advisers in the White House, Mr. Bannon is responsible for putting into action the nationalist vision that Mr. Trump channeled during the later months of the campaign, one that stemmed from Mr. Bannon himself. And in many ways Mr. Trump has acted on that vision during his first week in office ? from the description of ?American carnage? he laid out in his inauguration speech to a series of executive actions outlining policies on trade agreements, immigration and the building of a border wall.

Mr. Bannon is one of the strongest forces in an administration with competing power centers. A savvy manipulator of the press, and a proud provocateur, he was among the few advisers in Mr. Trump?s circle who were said to have urged Sean Spicer, the new press secretary, to give a confrontational, emotional statement to a shocked West Wing briefing room on Saturday, when the White House disputed news reports about the size of the inauguration crowd. He shares Mr. Trump?s view that the news media misunderstood the movement that the president rode into office.

Speaking by telephone on Wednesday, Mr. Bannon delivered a broad indictment of the news media as being biased against Mr. Trump and out of touch with the American public. That is an argument familiar to readers of Breitbart and followers of personalities friendly to Mr. Trump, like Sean Hannity of Fox News.

?The elite media got it dead wrong, 100 percent dead wrong,? Mr. Bannon said of the election, calling it ?a humiliating defeat that they will never wash away, that will always be there.?

?The mainstream media has not fired or terminated anyone associated with following our campaign,? Mr. Bannon said. ?Look at the Twitter feeds of those people: They were outright activists of the Clinton campaign.? (He did not name specific reporters or editors.)

?That?s why you have no power,? he added. ?You were humiliated.?

Mr. Bannon spoke in blunt but calm tones, peppered with profanity, and humorously referred to himself as ?Darth Vader.? He said, with ironic relish, that Mr. Trump was elected by a surge of support from ?the working-class hobbits and deplorables.?

The conversation was initiated by Mr. Bannon to offer praise for Mr. Spicer, who has been criticized this week for making false claims at the White House podium about attendance at Mr. Trump?s inaugural, for calling reporters dishonest and lecturing them about what stories to write, and for failing to disavow Mr. Trump?s lie about widespread voter fraud in the election.

Asked if he was concerned that Mr. Spicer had lost credibility with the news media, Mr. Bannon chortled. ?Are you kidding me?? he said. ?We think that?s a badge of honor. ?Questioning his integrity? ? are you kidding me? The media has zero integrity, zero intelligence, and no hard work.?

?You?re the opposition party,? he said. ?Not the Democratic Party. You?re the opposition party. The media?s the opposition party.?

Journalists reacted with alarm and defiance to Mr. Bannon?s comments. ?What country are we living in?? Christiane Amanpour, the CNN correspondent, wrote on Twitter.

?We are not the opposition,?? Stephen Engelberg, editor in chief of the nonprofit news organization ProPublica, wrote in an email. ?We are part of an essential function in any democracy.? He added that ProPublica had no intention of ?shutting up in response to this or any other president?s demand.?

?We are here to tell the truth and we intend to continue doing so, regardless of how badly some might want us to parrot ?alternative facts,?? Mr. Engelberg said.

Mr. Bannon mostly referred to the ?elite? or ?mainstream? media, but he cited The New York Times and The Washington Post by name.

?The paper of record for our beloved republic, The New York Times, should be absolutely ashamed and humiliated,? Mr. Bannon said. ?They got it 100 percent wrong.?

He added that he has been a reader of The Times for most of his adult life.
 
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