The Trump Presidency - how I stopped worrying and learned to love the Hair

Blind_Io

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... and that someone else needs to pay for it all.
Yes, that's how things work. How about we start with the top. The average American has seen an 11% pay raise from 1978 to 2014; in that same time, CEO pay has gone up 1,000%. By 2000, CEOs made 378 times more than their workers - as opposed to 1965 and the height of the middle class when the ratio was closer to 20:1. This is disproportionate to the increase in production- essentially, the pie hasn't gotten bigger, CEOs are just taking a larger slice for themselves; that means less money for the workers (you know, the ones that actually produce).

The real issues with higher education are two-fold: 1) irresponsible students taking out huge loans and majoring in useless shit that won't help them land a job, and 2) government guarantees on student loans encouraging bad investment, a la subprime mortgages. We need LESS government involvement in education, not more.
Yes, just ignore all the social issues of college profiteering that I just discussed and go back to blaming students for low wages, rising tuition, and a job market that won't even look at you unless you have a degree. Even if you do get a job, your earning potential is about the same as it was in the early 1980s, but the cost of getting the education is fantastically more expensive. This isn't about art majors, it's about every student regardless of major or career track starting out worse off than they would have at any time since the Great Depression.

Show me one time that less regulation has helped the little guy against large, established institutions. Libritarianism is a fairy tale that removed accountability from the power players so they can stay in power. Some of the greatest periods of growth in this country, including the rise of the middle class, happened under stricter banking regulations following a depression or major recession. And nearly every downturn in the economy started with the relaxing of those same regulations.

By all means, continue to parrot the same tired party line that got us here - ignore the evidence, ignore history, let's continue to burden future generations with a rigged system to generate dividends for the stockholders. Let's not have any accreditation at all, allow any fuckhead who wants to sell a dream to hang out sign and start a school. Oh... wait, didn't Trump do that? He did, didn't he, and his school was investigated for fraud and the subject of two class action lawsuits. Trump paid $25 Million to make the suits go away, then folded the business and disappeared all the documents before the state could fully investigate it.

Totally sells me on needing less accountability in education. :rolleyes:
 
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prizrak

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What is being called "socialism" in the US right now is the radical notion that people should have clean air and water, safe living environments, access to healthcare and education, that the rule of law should apply to everyone regardless of wealth, and that wages need to be livable.
Already the case last I checked.
Blind_Io said:
Maybe if things like the cost of a non-profit college hadn't gone up over 200% in the last 20 years - that's nearly 8 times faster than wages are going up. According to the Federal Reserve, wages over the same period only went up 0.3% after inflation. Since the mid-2000s, colleges (even state schools) have been shown to give an edge in admissions to out-of-state students who pay more in tuition. Combine that with college loan debt being considered a "safe" investment by funds because it can't be defaulted on except by death and you have a financial system full of baby boomer retirement that is banking off the backs of their kids as they try to start out against a rigged system. Even state governments are getting in on it, buying up large chunks of student debt to make money on servicing the loans (looking at you, Missouri).
Government backed student loans are one of the biggest reasons for college tuition going up, most of the cost increase in colleges are actually administrative rather than educational.
Blind_Io said:
I don't think the "radical left" is all that radical.
My problem with radical left is not their insistence on social programs, albeit I have not seen a single gov't program work even remotely well. It is the notion of group identity over individual. A certain amount of collectivism is required to have a society but IMO they are going way too far with it.
 

prizrak

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prizrak

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Yes, that's how things work. How about we start with the top. The average American has seen an 11% pay raise from 1978 to 2014; in that same time, CEO pay has gone up 1,000%. By 2000, CEOs made 378 times more than their workers - as opposed to 1965 and the height of the middle class when the ratio was closer to 20:1. This is disproportionate to the increase in production- essentially, the pie hasn't gotten bigger, CEOs are just taking a larger slice for themselves; that means less money for the workers (you know, the ones that actually produce).
We been over this, you keep completely ignoring the way that someone's worth is calculated vs wages. Reason for the growing income disparity is largely due to the growth of the finance industry. You make significantly more via stocks than you possibly could by working, it's literally money making money. Don't tax the rich, make changes to the way market works and fix the underlying issue.
 

prizrak

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Check again.
This time, with feeling.
Hmm let's see
- people should have clean air and water
Looks at the multtiple cats, sensors and emissions equipment on his cars - that's a check on clean air
Googles "water treatment plants" - hmm those also seem to exist
- safe living environments
Looks out to see some police cruisers outside - looks ok to me
- access to healthcare
Walks up the street to the nearest hospital - yep it's definitely there
- education,
Looks up dept of education - yep still exists
- that the rule of law should apply to everyone regardless of wealth
Fails to see any kind of provisions in any laws that say "except rich people"
- and that wages need to be livable.
Looks for jobs - yep quite a few well paying jobs, 25,000 less than there coulda been in Queens but hey at least Bezos didn't get his way...
 

gaasc

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My problem with radical left is not their insistence on social programs, albeit I have not seen a single gov't program work even remotely well. It is the notion of group identity over individual. A certain amount of collectivism is required to have a society but IMO they are going way too far with it.
And because moderation is dead, you can no longer side with a conservative with liberal social tendencies or a liberal with conservative economical policy (your moderate affiliation may vary). It's either "let them eat cake" or "Seize the means of production (means of productions promptly cease to work)".
 

prizrak

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@gaasc pretty much 100% this, I am perfectly fine with social safety nets and letting gays (or whoever marry) but I don't want the gov't to be all up in everyone's business nor do I agree with idea of protected groups and speech policing.
 

Blind_Io

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We been over this, you keep completely ignoring the way that someone's worth is calculated vs wages. Reason for the growing income disparity is largely due to the growth of the finance industry. You make significantly more via stocks than you possibly could by working, it's literally money making money. Don't tax the rich, make changes to the way market works and fix the underlying issue.
All for it. I've said in here before that we need to tax wealth, not just income. I think we last discussed this in terms of the Estate Tax, which does exactly that.

The idea is that you start creating a more equal system that supports education and fair wages by injecting money taken from the top. Then the middle class can flourish, which results in real economic growth, not just money making more money for the elite few. Economically speaking, the best years of our country had the lowest wealth and income inequality because the middle class drives the economy in ways the top 1% doesn't. Their money doesn't just sit in a fund making more money, it buys things, fuels small business innovation, and is reinvested more consistently and predictably for the middle class than all the hedgefunds pumping out dividends while most Americans live paycheck to paycheck.
 

prizrak

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All for it. I've said in here before that we need to tax wealth, not just income. I think we last discussed this in terms of the Estate Tax, which does exactly that.

The idea is that you start creating a more equal system that supports education and fair wages by injecting money taken from the top. Then the middle class can flourish, which results in real economic growth, not just money making more money for the elite few. Economically speaking, the best years of our country had the lowest wealth and income inequality because the middle class drives the economy in ways the top 1% doesn't. Their money doesn't just sit in a fund making more money, it buys things, fuels small business innovation, and is reinvested more consistently and predictably for the middle class than all the hedgefunds pumping out dividends while most Americans live paycheck to paycheck.
I somewhat disagree with the bolded part, mainly because it doesn't actually tell the whole story. It was also a time when US was emerging as a super power and was nearly the only industrial power in the world (USSR doesn't count since it was a closed off economy) due to WW2 devastation.

I think what we are seeing at the moment is a shifting economy, we are moving more and more into services and IT meaning there is simply much less money in low skilled or unskilled labor than there used to be.

IMO biggest issue is the financial system in and of itself, it is completely broken, you can see it well if you follow Apple stock. Despite the fact that they are damn near printing money and have posted consistently high profits stock price fluctuates massively based on perception of innovation. This is a bigger conversation of course, but as someone who spent a lot of time in finance I want to burn the whole thing down.
 

Blind_Io

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I will get the gasoline, you get the matches.

I've been saying the entire system is rigged for a while now, but the response I get is that less regulation is the key. Every time we relax regulations on the financial sector, they do something to damage the economy. This is why a comprehensive reform is needed and anything involving money has to address the question, "How will Wall Street try to use this to fuck us for their own gain?" That's where Clinton's housing initiative failed.
 

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I've always wondered if we should relocate Wall Street to the strip in Las Vegas. Seems a more fitting location for it.
 

Clegko

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I've always wondered if we should relocate Wall Street to the strip in Las Vegas. Seems a more fitting location for it.
Put it in Reno, instead. No need to mess with a good thing in Vegas.
 

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Hmm let's see
- people should have clean air and water
Looks at the multtiple cats, sensors and emissions equipment on his cars - that's a check on clean air
Googles "water treatment plants" - hmm those also seem to exist
- safe living environments
Looks out to see some police cruisers outside - looks ok to me
- access to healthcare
Walks up the street to the nearest hospital - yep it's definitely there
- education,
Looks up dept of education - yep still exists
- that the rule of law should apply to everyone regardless of wealth
Fails to see any kind of provisions in any laws that say "except rich people"
- and that wages need to be livable.
Looks for jobs - yep quite a few well paying jobs, 25,000 less than there coulda been in Queens but hey at least Bezos didn't get his way...

Also, Global warming is a hoax because you have so much snow in your driveway?
 

Blind_Io

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Hmm let's see
- people should have clean air and water
Looks at the multtiple cats, sensors and emissions equipment on his cars - that's a check on clean air
Continued subsidies for billion-dollar oil companies, Trump's push for more coal power, relaxing EPA standards on fuel efficiency...

Googles "water treatment plants" - hmm those also seem to exist
Flint would like a word. EPA's own numbers show that over the last decade nearly 20% of Americans were exposed to unsafe water.
- safe living environments
Looks out to see some police cruisers outside - looks ok to me
It's more than just police presence, it's building codes, zoning that prevents heavy industry from moving in next to your house, regulations on chemical disposal - all of which have been pushed by the left and fairly consistently are opposed by the right because it undercuts profits.
- access to healthcare
Walks up the street to the nearest hospital - yep it's definitely there
Here's your bill, please sell everything you own and declare bankruptcy. Medical bills are the number one cause of bankruptcy in the US.
- education,
Looks up dept of education - yep still exists
Under DeVos, who has been very clear about her intentions to turn education into a for-profit business and remove any regulations that require states to provide anything based on actual evidence - instead we should be teaching what the Bible says.
- that the rule of law should apply to everyone regardless of wealth
Fails to see any kind of provisions in any laws that say "except rich people"
You don't think that people with enough money don't have the same problems with the law as poor people?
- and that wages need to be livable.
Looks for jobs - yep quite a few well paying jobs, 25,000 less than there coulda been in Queens but hey at least Bezos didn't get his way...
Try living on minimum wage some time. Four out of five American workers still live paycheck to paycheck.
 

prizrak

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Continued subsidies for billion-dollar oil companies, Trump's push for more coal power, relaxing EPA standards on fuel efficiency...

It's more than just police presence, it's building codes, zoning that prevents heavy industry from moving in next to your house, regulations on chemical disposal - all of which have been pushed by the left and fairly consistently are opposed by the right because it undercuts profits.
Those are mostly bad policies*

*I don't agree with CAFE regulations, the market and move into electrification can decide fuel efficiency not government.

Blind_Io]Flint would like a word. EPA's own numbers show that over the last decade nearly 20% of Americans were exposed to unsafe water.[/quote] Flint is a failing of a local (democratic IIRC) government [QUOTE="Blind_Io said:
Here's your bill, please sell everything you own and declare bankruptcy. Medical bills are the number one cause of bankruptcy in the US.
That doesn't make healthcare inaccessibly, merely not affordable. However we are in this mess mostly because we moved from cash based transactions to private insurance. Going single payer, which is what I assume you are talking about, won't fix this, we would just end up footing those massive bills via taxes instead of money from our paychecks.
Blind_Io said:
Under DeVos, who has been very clear about her intentions to turn education into a for-profit business and remove any regulations that require states to provide anything based on actual evidence - instead we should be teaching what the Bible says.
We have gender studies in major accredited universities, nothing to do with science or DeVos... Education system is completely fucked up in general. This is a topic I can talk about for hours on end, but TL;DR is that school funding is tied to property taxes and test scores. That in turn ensures that there is a massive disparity in quality of schools depending on how expensive the area is and that schools don't teach anything aside from passing the test.
Blind_Io said:
You don't think that people with enough money don't have the same problems with the law as poor people?
There are a ton of white collar criminals behind bars, not to mention all the recent high profile sexual cases. Sure if you have money for lawyers you are likely to be better of than someone dealing with an overworked public defendant but there is always inherent imbalance in any human system. I'd also suspect that people with better income don't break laws as much or at least not in as obvious a way.
Blind_Io said:
Try living on minimum wage some time. Four out of five American workers still live paycheck to paycheck.
You are making a common mistake of confusing minimum wage with living wage. Minimum wage was never meant to be a living wage, it's unskilled labor that allows people to enter the workforce and get some experience. Also I have lived on min wage, it sucked. I'm one of those workers, which is largely my own fault but working on changing it.


Here is a Mike Row post on minimum wage https://www.facebook.com/TheRealMikeRowe/photos/off-the-wall-hi-mike-the-federal-minimum-wage-is-725-and-hour-a-lot-of-people-th/938376616172482/
 

Blind_Io

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It's simple. The GOP wants to end government regulation. To some degree, I agree with this, but they paint with too broad a brush; targeted reduction in bureaucracy is fine and I support it, however, they want to deregulated major industries with the capacity to do incalculable harm to people, the environment, and the economy.

Some regulation is necessary, and the more powerful the players, the more necessary it is. Deregulating industries that already are more powerful than governments in many ways is only going to lead to profiteering and further consolidation of power and money in a select few.
 

prizrak

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It's simple. The GOP wants to end government regulation. To some degree, I agree with this, but they paint with too broad a brush; targeted reduction in bureaucracy is fine and I support it, however, they want to deregulated major industries with the capacity to do incalculable harm to people, the environment, and the economy.

Some regulation is necessary, and the more powerful the players, the more necessary it is. Deregulating industries that already are more powerful than governments in many ways is only going to lead to profiteering and further consolidation of power and money in a select few.
I agree with all of this
 

jack_christie

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It's simple. The GOP wants to end government regulation. To some degree, I agree with this, but they paint with too broad a brush; targeted reduction in bureaucracy is fine and I support it, however, they want to deregulated major industries with the capacity to do incalculable harm to people, the environment, and the economy.

Some regulation is necessary, and the more powerful the players, the more necessary it is. Deregulating industries that already are more powerful than governments in many ways is only going to lead to profiteering and further consolidation of power and money in a select few.
Trade war means more red tape.

Killing the Trans Pacific trade deal, means more red tape for business.
 

jack_christie

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Intimidation, Pressure and Humiliation: Inside Trump’s Two-Year War on the Investigations Encircling Him
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/19/us/politics/trump-investigations.html


Trump, McCabe and the Justice Department Go to War

Deep State believers see evil forces at work. Other folks see the rule of law. You decide.
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-02-20/trump-mccabe-whitaker-and-the-fbi-test-presidential-authority


Mueller to reportedly complete Trump-Russia report 'as soon as next week
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/live/2019/feb/20/donald-trump-latest-news-live-updates-california-rail
 
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