The Trump Presidency - how I stopped worrying and learned to love the Hair

Blind_Io

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It's not about "getting to the bottom" of what happened in 2016 - if Trump had just approached Ukraine to collaborate on fighting corruption in general, that would have been fine. He first withheld vital aid and then asked for Ukraine to specifically target one of his political rivals within the context of the 2020 election; this is violation of federal law.
 

jack_christie

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Trump is playing off the conspiracy that Russia had nothing to do with 2016, that it was Ukraine.
Which has been part of the Russian playbook since all this started.

Tragic that so many in the GOP and right wing media have gone along with this charade.
 

Blind_Io

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Biden aside, I thought everyone wanted "get to the bottom of what happened" in 2016
I know I replied to this already, but something else came to mind: the timeline.

Hunter Biden and others founded BHR Partners in China in 2013.
He also served on the Ukranian gas board from 2014 - 2019.
Trump was sworn in on Jan 20, 2017.
Ukranian prosecutors looked into Hunter Biden and found no wrongdoing in Ukraine.
Joe Biden declared his candidacy on April 25, 2019.
Trump makes the call to The Ukranian President in July citing "the need to seek out corruption" as the public reason

So for 825 days Donald "Drain the Swamp" Trump was uninterested in the case. I wonder what changed?

Remember, Joe Biden, along with other diplomats and world leaders, were pressuring Ukraine to crack down on corruption and fire a corrupt prosecutor who was only selectively prosecuting cases. If Joe Biden knew his son was corrupt, why would he exert political pressure on Ukraine to crack down on corruption and put both himself and his son at risk? The narrative makes no sense.
 

Blind_Io

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Refugees have historically been a good bet, despite often arriving with nothing. From a 2017 study:

Refugees earn more than $77 billion in household income and paid almost $21 billion in taxes in 2015, according to this New American Economy report, that offers one of the few comprehensive analyses of how refugees contribute to the U.S. economy overall and provides insight into the economic contributions of a small and often misunderstood segment of the foreign-born population.


The study uses the 5-year 2015 American Community Survey (ACS) to provide a large and representative picture of the 3.4 million refugees who arrived in the United States since 1975. It demonstrates the strong, long-term upward economic trajectory experienced by many refugee families, and gives evidence that, rather than a drain on communities, the high rate of labor force participation of refugees and their spirit of entrepreneurship instead sustains and strengthens their new hometowns.

More here: https://research.newamericaneconomy...e-the-economic-impact-of-refugees-in-america/

Essentially, investing in people who have nothing pays us back many times over. Even if you were to put humanity aside and look at immigration only through the lens of capitalism, the ROI speaks for itself.
 

prizrak

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Refugees have historically been a good bet, despite often arriving with nothing. From a 2017 study
The rule doesn’t affect refugees

Also your study isn't as useful to support your argument as you think, there are many different kinds of refugees, which the study doesn't actually address.
For example many Jews coming out of the former Soviet countries (including non USSR) were (and to my knowledge still are) eligible for refugee status. Incidentally those were usually highly educated (we are talking post grad STEM degrees) and highly motivated (wasn't easy to get out from behind the iron curtain AND get refugee status). Of course those people tended to do rather well in an environment that, for the most part, rewards knowledge and motivation.

Now I'm not saying that if you aren't an eastern european jew you would be a drain on the system, only illustrating the point that "refugee" is an extremely diverse group of people with many different backgrounds. It's kind of like any study that says "asians" completely ignores the fact that there are a huge number of countries and cultures that would all be considered asian by us.
 
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GRtak

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I just find it more than a little strange that the republicans that so strongly profess not having a problem with legal immigration, keep implementing more barriers to it.
 

prizrak

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I just find it more than a little strange that the republicans that so strongly profess not having a problem with legal immigration, keep implementing more barriers to it.
Perhaps they think we have enough? Remember US takes in more immigrants than any other country.

Also being ok with legal immigration and also being selective about who gets to immigrate are not mutually exclusive

Like I'm OK if some of my friends and my wife drive my car, but I'm not going to put it up on Turo and let anyone who wants to drive it.
 
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Blind_Io

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The study takes into consideration all refugees, over the entire population we have a significantly positive ROI. I don't think citing a pattern of immigration that hasn't existed since the 1990s is a particularly strong argument against immigration.
 

avanti

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I don’t really see much problem with that, since asylum seekers/refugees are exempt. What benefit would low income immigrants be to the country?
Sounds excellent! In addition make it easier for people that can support themselves to get a green card. I have wanted to live in the US since I was a kid but the only realistic route is through marriage. Let me opt out of every welfare program and let me in!
 

prizrak

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The study takes into consideration all refugees, over the entire population we have a significantly positive ROI. I don't think citing a pattern of immigration that hasn't existed since the 1990s is a particularly strong argument against immigration.
That is exactly my point, you only know the averages but not the data that goes into it. For all you know it's only refugees from North Korea that are carrying the rest.

Also I'm not in any way anti immigration, for pretty obvious reasons, I'm just trying to make a couple of points:
1 - just because refugees overall do well doesn't mean that all or even majority are doing well.
2 - trying to prevent possible drain on public resources by not letting in non-refugee low income immigrants makes logical sense.
 
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Mr. Nice

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The New Colossus
By Emma Lazarus, 1883
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"​
 

prizrak

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The New Colossus
By Emma Lazarus, 1883
Not like the brazen giant of Greek fame,
With conquering limbs astride from land to land;
Here at our sea-washed, sunset gates shall stand
A mighty woman with a torch, whose flame
Is the imprisoned lightning, and her name
Mother of Exiles. From her beacon-hand
Glows world-wide welcome; her mild eyes command
The air-bridged harbor that twin cities frame.
"Keep, ancient lands, your storied pomp!" cries she
With silent lips. "Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"​
Poetry does not make for a very good policy. Not to mention the ever so slightly different world we live in now.
 

GRtak

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I don't even know what to say anymore. Here is the latest excuse/deflection.

https://amp.axios.com/trump-blamed-...sky-8178447a-0374-4ac6-b321-a9454b0565d4.html

Scoop: Trump pins Ukraine call on Energy Secretary Rick Perry

President Trump told House Republicans that he made his now infamous phone call to Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky at the urging of Energy Secretary Rick Perry — a call Trump claimed he didn’t even want to make.
Behind the scenes: Trump made these comments during a conference call with House members on Friday, according to 3 sources on the call.
  • Per the sources, Trump rattled off the same things he has been saying publicly — that his call with Zelensky was "perfect"and he did nothing wrong.
  • But he then threw Perry into the mix and said something to the effect of: "Not a lot of people know this but, I didn't even want to make the call. The only reason I made the call was because Rick asked me to. Something about an LNG [liquified natural gas] plant," one source said, recalling the president's comments. 2 other sources confirmed the first source's recollection.
Why it matters: The president's remarks suggest he may be seeking to distance himself from responsibility or recast the pretext for the call. White House officials did not respond to requests for comment.
  • Another source on the call said Trump added that "more of this will be coming out in the next few days" — referring to Perry.
Worth noting: Text messages released this week between Trump administration officials and Andrey Yermak, a top aide to Zelensky, suggest that Trump's personal lawyer, Rudy Giuliani, was a primary advocate for arranging the call.
  • There is no mention in the text messages of Perry playing a role in making this call happen.
  • Zelensky talks about buying American oil and wanting to work with the U.S. on energy independence, but Perry and LNG are not discussed in the 5-page memo of the Trump-Zelensky call released by the White House.
Between the lines: Perry, who is reportedly resigning by the end of this year, has become increasingly embroiled in congressional Democrats' impeachment inquiry.
Perry's spokeswoman, Shaylyn Hynes, told Axios: “Secretary Perry absolutely supported and encouraged the president to speak to the new president of Ukraine to discuss matters related to their energy security and economic development."
  • "He continues to believe that there is significant need for improved regional energy security—which is exactly why he is heading to Lithuania tonight to meet with nearly 2 dozen European energy leaders (including Ukraine) on these issues,” Haynes added.
The White House acknowledged the conference call in a Friday readout that said participants included Minority Leader McCarthy, Whip Steve Scalise, Republican Conference Chair Liz Cheney, and GOP leaders on key House committees — and that they discussed Friday's jobs report, the economy and concerns about Democrats' impeachment inquiry.
  • The readout makes no mention of Rick Perry.
 

Mr. Nice

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Poetry does not make for a very good policy. Not to mention the ever so slightly different world we live in now.
Our country has assistance programs for the poor, but they are not a large portion of our state and federal budgets. Your and my tax dollars mostly go to the military and medicare. It is also very difficult and expensive to legally immigrate if you're not a refugee. It's hard to look at your position as being anything other than xenophobic.

https://www.thebalance.com/current-u-s-federal-government-spending-3305763

https://www.quora.com/How-much-does-it-cost-to-immigrate-to-the-US-from-Mexico-legally
 

prizrak

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Our country has assistance programs for the poor, but they are not a large portion of our state and federal budgets. Your and my tax dollars mostly go to the military and medicare. It is also very difficult and expensive to legally immigrate if you're not a refugee. It's hard to look at your position as being anything other than xenophobic.

https://www.thebalance.com/current-u-s-federal-government-spending-3305763

https://www.quora.com/How-much-does-it-cost-to-immigrate-to-the-US-from-Mexico-legally
I, and a ton of people I know, legally immigrated to the US. Hell there are at least two other legal immigrants on the board here...

My position is dictated by basic logic, if you want your country to thrive you want to bring in people who will help you do just that. It’s same reason for stuff like H1B work visa, that allows companies to hire the best and the brightest from other countries and bring em here.
 
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