The Trump Presidency - how I stopped worrying and learned to love the Hair

Interrobang said:
Prediction: Today is the day that these few rebelling Republicans will pass TrumpCare because they have no spine. They shortly pretended that they would not accept this bill (because it was either too much or too little), but Trump is calling their bluff and the prospect of Obamacare staying around because of that will ensure that they will pass TrumpCare.

And with that they've showed that they are weak and Trump will get what he wants from them in the future. The mistake these Republicans made was thinking that Trump wouldn't raise the stakes and call their Bluff. And for once I have to say: he played them well. He knew they would rather pass this bill than have Obamacare stay around a couple of years - and then he build up some pressure, and that was enough. In the future they will certainly fall in-line more easily.
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Turns out at least some of them have enough spine. The bill got pulled before the vote.
 
marcos_eirik said:
Turns out at least some of them have enough spine. The bill got pulled before the vote.
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I'm keeping the celebration muted. It'll be back.

That said, I am still celebrating. The Republican base might buy the bullshit, but I'm chortling at how incompetent they look now.
 
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PelicanHazard said:
The Republican base might buy the bullshit, but I'm chortling at how incompetent they look now.
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This. They had 7 years to draw up a new plan, instead they spent that time acting like a bunch of children and cried about the problem to themselves, their constituents, and the media.
 
They promised to repeal the ACA, but as with all disastrous entitlement programs, people became dependent on it and now they're too cowardly to do what they said they would do. So they're dicking around trying to do the impossible. The way I see it, either we go full free market or we go full single payer. These half measures are just a waste of time joke and a lot of people are going to suffer under these incompetent policies until that decision is made.

Personally, I would rather have free market, but then again, I prefer being treated like an adult, not a child.
 
TC said:
They promised to repeal the ACA, but as with all disastrous entitlement programs, people became dependent on it and now they're too cowardly to do what they said they would do.
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This statement is a load garbage.

The ACA has been a financial disaster but it has not been a social disasters and yeah given that this is healthcare something that physical affects us day to day I don't see how one could not be dependent on it. If it were up to the free market a sick individual seeking care would find themselves putting up with worse shit from their insurance than their actual illness.
 
TC said:
Personally, I would rather have free market, but then again, I prefer being treated like an adult, not a child.
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If you expect the US to switch to free market, you're going to die disappointed.

Cellos88GT said:
If it were up to the free market a sick individual seeking care would find themselves putting up with worse shit from their insurance than their actual illness.
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In a true free market, there wouldn't be insurance; patient and doctor (or dentist or whatever's appropriate) negotiate directly. How well it works depends on the individual. The rich would be fine under such a system. Everyone else, not so much. Think of elective procedures like Lasik to get an idea of how it would work: the rich can get it no problem, the average American can budget for it, the poor have to rely on help or forgo it. Except instead of optional optics correction, it's extended to everything.
 
Cellos88GT said:
This statement is a load garbage.

The ACA has been a financial disaster...
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Riiiiiiight, that's what I said.

Cellos88GT said:
...but it has not been a social disasters and yeah given that this is healthcare something that physical affects us day to day I don't see how one could not be dependent on it. If it were up to the free market a sick individual seeking care would find themselves putting up with worse shit from their insurance than their actual illness.
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It depends on the insurance company and the conditions you agreed to when purchasing your policy. People like to confuse health insurance with health care, they are not the same thing. In the real world you're expected to pay for the services and products you receive, but if you want to gamble and purchase an insurance policy that may never come in handy, you should have that right too. But all this disastrous government meddling is ruining health care, imo, not the insurance companies.


PelicanHazard said:
If you expect the US to switch to free market, you're going to die disappointed.
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Maybe, or maybe the economy will collapse under the weight of these utopian entitlement programs and we'll end up in a free market, only under 3rd world living conditions. Or maybe someone with an IQ over 60 will finally get elected into government and a competent policy will be introduced. I'm honestly not sure which of those 2 outcomes is more unlikely.

PelicanHazard said:
In a true free market, there wouldn't be insurance;
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Wut.

PelicanHazard said:
Think of elective procedures like Lasik to get an idea of how it would work: the rich can get it no problem, the average American can budget for it, the poor have to rely on help or forgo it. Except instead of optional optics correction, it's extended to everything.
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You mean laser eye surgery, where technological advancement has been increasing, offering higher quality services, all while lowering costs? Where banks are lined up around the block offering 0% financing? Kinda stands in stark contrast to the rest of the medical industry, where advancement is stunted and the costs are skyrocketing.
 
TC said:
Wut.
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Strictly speaking, we don't need an insurance industry to have healthcare. It has become common sense that we need insurance to have healthcare, but the reality is that insurance companies are simply the middle man between patient and healthcare provider. You can cut out the middle man - get ride of the entire insurance industry.

Now, that obviously won't happen because it is such a giant money maker. In addition, the fundamental idea of insurance is not inherently bad. If it is ran by the government or by hospitals as a social service that is meant to help people, that will be perfect. But because it is a for profit industry, their endline can never be even (cost of service and salary to doctor = cost to customer), and instead they seek to make money. Billions to be exact.

A true healtcare reform would give a big FU to the insurance industry and cut their greedy legs.

Again...that's unlikely to happen in our corporate culture.
 
There is also the profit motive from Big Pharma, hospitals, medical equipment suppliers, etc., etc.. As I have said before, one of the meds I need has gone up about 35% since I started using it 5ish years ago. It would not be terrible if it was from $10 to $13.50 a month. I am talking $80 for a month for one medicine that my insurance won't cover(one of the holes in the ACA).

What needs to happen is Medicare and Medicaid need to be expanded to cover everyone. The supplemental insurance to fill in the gaps.
 
_HighVoltage_ said:
Strictly speaking, we don't need an insurance industry to have healthcare.
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It was more the idea that insurance companies wouldn't exist in a free market that I found baffling. Insurance companies are all the same. They are all for-profit and offer a service. If you don't want that service, then don't buy it. But people are trying to make health insurance companies into healthcare companies, which is what bothers me. I'm young and healthy, but something bad might happen to me, so I would like to buy a catastrophic health insurance policy. Unfortunately I cannot, since health insurance companies have been pushed into becoming healthcare companies. The whole industry is in shambles. I haven't had a decent health insurance policy since GW was in office.
 
TC said:
It was more the idea that insurance companies wouldn't exist in a free market that I found baffling. Insurance companies are all the same. They are all for-profit and offer a service. If you don't want that service, then don't buy it. But people are trying to make health insurance companies into healthcare companies, which is what bothers me. I'm young and healthy, but something bad might happen to me, so I would like to buy a catastrophic health insurance policy. Unfortunately I cannot, since health insurance companies have been pushed into becoming healthcare companies. The whole industry is in shambles. I haven't had a decent health insurance policy since GW was in office.
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I wouldn't go that far. Here is my issue with insurance companies. From a customer perspective, you buy insurance as a protection against risk. You are willing to pay a little bit now, to protect yourself in the event something terrible happens to you. That's not how the companies see it though. There is no risk for them. Ideally, they would have the same mentality - "Hey, this customer has paid his premium for years, now he is in accident and we need to pay him $1 million. It's a financial loss, but we knew there was a chance of that happening." Instead, they get their panties in a bunch and complain about loss of profit, and end up raising premiums for other people in the same pool to offset that financial loss and guarantee they still profit.

If they didn't do that, they will fail as that is bad business practice. I do not want them to operate like healthcare providers, but I also don't want to be forced into supporting this business. You say that if I don't want that service, I don't have to buy it, but that's not realistic - the system has effectively made it a requirement to buy into that business because healthcare costs otherwise are outlandish.

As it is, insurance companies only compete with each other on who gets the customer, whereas they have to be fighting to convince me I need the business in the first place.
 
_HighVoltage_ said:
I wouldn't go that far. Here is my issue with insurance companies. From a customer perspective, you buy insurance as a protection against risk. You are willing to pay a little bit now, to protect yourself in the event something terrible happens to you. That's not how the companies see it though. There is no risk for them. Ideally, they would have the same mentality - "Hey, this customer has paid his premium for years, now he is in accident and we need to pay him $1 million. It's a financial loss, but we knew there was a chance of that happening." Instead, they get their panties in a bunch and complain about loss of profit, and end up raising premiums for other people in the same pool to offset that financial loss and guarantee they still profit.
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That's how every company works and there is nothing to be done about it. If you get the government involved, the same thing will happen that is happening now. The ACA forced Americans into buying health insurance, whether they wanted it or not, and forced the companies into signing every customer, whether they wanted to or not. So the insurance companies took advantage of the situation, posted record profits, and then shut their doors. No one wants to go into that industry anymore, because of government meddling, which is resulting in higher premiums and worse coverage.

Even if they repeal the ACA and return to a free market, it would probably take many many years for things to recover. That's why I think it's pointless for the republicans to even attempt to polish the turd that is the ACA. Either they flush it or they bring in full socialized health care.

_HighVoltage_ said:
If they didn't do that, they will fail as that is bad business practice. I do not want them to operate like healthcare providers, but I also don't want to be forced into supporting this business. You say that if I don't want that service, I don't have to buy it, but that's not realistic - the system has effectively made it a requirement to buy into that business because healthcare costs otherwise are outlandish.

As it is, insurance companies only compete with each other on who gets the customer, whereas they have to be fighting to convince me I need the business in the first place.
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Look at student loan costs. The moment the government started backing student loans, colleges started jacking up tuition costs, which prices college out of most peoples' reach, forcing them into student loans. Everyone profits except the students. And instead of recognizing that error, people like Bernie Sanders want to double down on it, wanting free college tuition for everyone. The inevitable result would be colleges doubling or tripling tuition costs, because they're greedy shysters like everyone else. And if we attempt to return to a free market, it would end in disaster because the tuition costs would be so far out of control that no one except the super rich would be able to afford college.

Like you say, it would be better to stay the hell out of it and let these companies earn their business by convincing people that they need it. The government forcing this stuff on us is pretty much always going to end badly.
 
marcos_eirik said:
Turns out at least some of them have enough spine. The bill got pulled before the vote.
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[h=1]Trump: I Never Said We?d Repeal Obamacare Quickly[/h]http://www.patheos.com/blogs/dispatches/2017/03/25/trump-never-said-wed-repeal-obamacare-quickly/

Jan. 24, 2015, in a speech at the Iowa Freedom Summit:
?Somebody has to repeal and replace Obamacare. And they have to do it fast and not just talk about it.?

Feb 9 2006, Twitter:
We will immediately repeal and replace ObamaCare ? and nobody can do that like me.

And on.. and on.. and on...

Hopefully, Americans will start seeing what they voted for, a con artist.
 
TC said:
Wut.
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Seems I didn't follow my own advice and let the celebrations get the best of me. I retract that.

TC said:
You mean laser eye surgery, where technological advancement has been increasing, offering higher quality services, all while lowering costs? Where banks are lined up around the block offering 0% financing? Kinda stands in stark contrast to the rest of the medical industry, where advancement is stunted and the costs are skyrocketing.
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Yeah, and which is an optional service. You can only stretch an analogy so far. See below for my opinion on other things.

TC said:
Insurance companies are all the same. They are all for-profit and offer a service. If you don't want that service, then don't buy it. But people are trying to make health insurance companies into healthcare companies, which is what bothers me. I'm young and healthy, but something bad might happen to me, so I would like to buy a catastrophic health insurance policy. Unfortunately I cannot, since health insurance companies have been pushed into becoming healthcare companies. The whole industry is in shambles. I haven't had a decent health insurance policy since GW was in office.
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Some setup: everyone will need healthcare, now or later. When depends on tons of factors from lifestyle to genetics to random chance, but everyone will need it at some point in their lives. Under an insurance free market, then, what you're choosing is when to buy into the risk pool and which pool to buy into, with the earlier and more you do so (theoretically) giving you better coverage when you do need healthcare. Those who choose later and less get commensurately worse coverage because they're in a higher risk pool.

Example: So you're young and healthy, not really a risk taker, and your young-person job is ok but not a lot of money, so you judge that you only need coverage for emergencies like car crashes, and buy accordingly (and affordably). Great! Then you get diagnosed with cancer, your coverage doesn't cover that since you judged your risk low, you end up paying a hell of a lot more than if you had chosen a different plan that would have covered cancer, and being a free market the affordable insurance plans are now closed off to you since they're made affordable by choosing not to cover those with pre-existing conditions like cancer, and now you're stuck in an awful position and unable to get out except if you suddenly make more money.

But your cancer is malicious enough that your treatments mean you're out of the office enough that your employer fires you ("You're a great worker, but we need someone who can put in the time..."). Well shit, now you're having trouble just being able to afford a health care plan because you're making nothing.

Due to no fault of your own, except choosing the "wrong" plan, you're now in a shit position. And really, how would you have analyzed that risk?

Just to be clear, the above example is not a hypothetical of what can happen to you, it's a history of what happened to a friend and my mother. My friend is the young and healthy person diagnosed with cancer, who found herself unable to buy insurance until ACA came around. My mom is the one who can't work anymore due to her cancer. My dad tries his best, but his job is insufficient and the only reason they're not in an even worse situation is government assistance and what help my brother and I can provide.

The crux of this is that you already know is that any random individual gets the lowest cost the larger and lower risk of a pool they are in, with the logical extension that the lowest risk pool is the one spread over the most people, i.e. the whole of society. Free market just fragments that into pools that lower the cost for some, but shove most into higher risk pools by the simple fact that individuals are way more likely to underestimate their risk.

TC said:
Even if they repeal the ACA and return to a free market, it would probably take many many years for things to recover. That's why I think it's pointless for the republicans to even attempt to polish the turd that is the ACA. Either they flush it or they bring in full socialized health care.
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Just a small point I want to make, insurance hasn't been dominantly free market since WWII. Before ACA, the majority of Americans got coverage either as an employment benefit or through government programs. If that's what you meant, just to return to pre-Obamacare, that's fine. But only a small number of Americans participated in a free market for insurance then.

TC said:
Look at student loan costs. The moment the government started backing student loans, colleges started jacking up tuition costs, which prices college out of most peoples' reach, forcing them into student loans. Everyone profits except the students. And instead of recognizing that error, people like Bernie Sanders want to double down on it, wanting free college tuition for everyone. The inevitable result would be colleges doubling or tripling tuition costs, because they're greedy shysters like everyone else. And if we attempt to return to a free market, it would end in disaster because the tuition costs would be so far out of control that no one except the super rich would be able to afford college.
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Hm, if health insurance returns to a free market, it would recover in years, but if college does, it would end in disaster?

I just highlighted the greedy shysters bit because that's how I feel about insurance companies. I'm sure you can see why, given my experiences above.

mpicco said:
[h=1]Trump: I Never Said We?d Repeal Obamacare Quickly[/h]http://www.patheos.com/blogs/dispatches/2017/03/25/trump-never-said-wed-repeal-obamacare-quickly/

Jan. 24, 2015, in a speech at the Iowa Freedom Summit:
?Somebody has to repeal and replace Obamacare. And they have to do it fast and not just talk about it.?

Feb 9 2006, Twitter:
We will immediately repeal and replace ObamaCare ? and nobody can do that like me.

And on.. and on.. and on...

Hopefully, Americans will start seeing what they voted for, a con artist.
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"Yeah, but at least he's not a Dem." <- A wholly believable comment that's actually pretty tame compared to others I've seen recently.
 
mpicco said:
[h=1]Trump: I Never Said We?d Repeal Obamacare Quickly[/h]http://www.patheos.com/blogs/dispatches/2017/03/25/trump-never-said-wed-repeal-obamacare-quickly/

Jan. 24, 2015, in a speech at the Iowa Freedom Summit:
?Somebody has to repeal and replace Obamacare. And they have to do it fast and not just talk about it.?

Feb 9 2006, Twitter:
We will immediately repeal and replace ObamaCare ? and nobody can do that like me.

And on.. and on.. and on...

Hopefully, Americans will start seeing what they voted for, a con artist.
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So trump tweeted this morning that we should watch Judge Jeanine Pirro on Fox tonight. So I did. She "called" for Ryan to resign. She also said this...which had me ROFL

She added: ?I want to be clear. This is not on President Trump. No one expected a business man to completely understand the nuances, the complicated ins and outs of Washington and its legislative process.?
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From times.co.uk

Donald Trump handed the German chancellor Angela Merkel a bill ? thought to be for more than ?300bn ? for money her country ?owed? Nato for defending it when they met last weekend, German government sources have revealed.

The bill ? handed over during private talks in Washington ? was described as ?outrageous? by one German minister.

?The concept behind putting out such demands is to intimidate the other side, but the chancellor took it calmly and will not respond to such provocations,? the minister said.
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Crazy if for real
 
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