The Trump Presidency - how I stopped worrying and learned to love the Hair

prizrak

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Yes, but he gave a non-religious reason to be against abortion.



They were banned for a period.
https://www.marxists.org/history/erol/ca.firstwave/cpl-abortion/section5.htm

I mentioned them as an example of a non religious anti-abortion prohibition. In the USSR's case, it had to do with so many people having died as a result of Communist policies. The prohibition happened not long after the Ukrainian famine (the one where the Party told people not to eat their children. Go Marxism!).
Got it, and yes anti-abortion arguments don't have to be religious.

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From my post, it should have been clear that I was referring to the belief that it's not a human being until it's born. It is that belief that seems more in line with religion than science from my perspective. Most people don't believe that though. Even someone like Hitchens didn't buy into it. So when does the cluster of cells become a human life? That's the part that I find a bit wishy washy. Lots of arbitrary distinctions and moving goal posts due to advances in science.
Yep it is all arbitrary, however the idea of human only after birth is neither religious nor scientific, a purely scientific view would be "minimal viable fetus" but as you correctly point out it's a moving goal post.

However the religious argument here is that if it has a soul it's a human and the believe is of course that a fetus has a soul from the beginning.

I don't disagree, but this isn't about money so much as morality. We could extend abortions after birth, for social burden reasons, but that would be murder, which is the crux of the whole issue regarding abortion.
Problem with the whole morality angle is that it gets very muddled up because it is also immoral to tell someone what to do with their body and a fetus is part of a mother's body until the umbilical is cut.

Also morality is very subjective to societies, what our society considers moral is not necessarily what others would, even within our society morality is not an absolute as some groups have different moral compass from others.

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Debates about abortion. Sounds like my highschool debate 'class'.

Next up, euthanasia !
I think it's necessary, esp when it comes to Prius drivers
 
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mpicco

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Reddit said:
https://np.reddit.com/r/news/comments/5phjg9/kellyanne_conway_spicer_gave_alternative_facts_on/dcrdfgn/?st=iy99x3xr&sh=83b411f1

"Orwellian"
For the first time in 30 years of Internet, this is finally the appropriate time to use that word.
Does everybody now see why I've been bitching about its abuse for the last 30 years? Starbucks issuing a holiday cup that doesn't mention Christmas is not "Orwellian." Reddit shutting down a couple of racey subs is not "Orwellian." When you scream "fascist" and "Orwell" at every trivial bullshit thing, you have no words left to draw attention to the urgency of the current situation.


Prerequisite reading: The actual BOOK, Nineteen Eighty-Four. It?s not enough just to know the title. It?s not enough to know the TV reality show which is Big Brother?s namesake. The Cliff?s notes you used to skim by it on the exam aren?t enough. Book, whole book.
In the book, Winston Smith is a character working for the ?Ministry of Truth,? the ironically named branch of government responsible for fixing the media to be always in Big Brother?s favor. If Big Brother says something which turns out to be wrong, the MoT edits it. If the offending news item was so incorrect as to be ludicrous, sometimes Smith replaces that day?s statement with complete fabrication, such as awarding a metal to a non-existent war hero. Records of items the MoT wants to purge go down the ?memory hole,? implied to be an incinerator.
In this government, slogans are enforced, including "War is peace", "Freedom is slavery", and "Ignorance is strength." At one point the government switches its alliance from the countries of Eurasia to Eastasia and a speaker in mid-rant against one is handed a note and corrects himself to immediately continue ranting against the other as if the entire speech had been about that. A motif frequently cited in the book is ?Who controls the past controls the future; who controls the present controls the past.?


This shows a fundamental method of the dystopia: The absolute control of media and attempt to control the thinking of every individual through brute force. At no point does the government worry that its subjects will jump up and go ?Wait a minute, you just told us we were at war with Eurasia! I remember it, it just happened!? Whenever anybody does, off they go to the ?Ministry of Love? where they get tortured until they see it Big Brother?s way. But most people don?t. Most people show an eerie, cow-like ability to be led, against everything a logical mind would expect.
Trump has demonstrated an uncanny, almost unbelievable ability to just bend the past however he wants. And you can protest all you want; nobody is really stopping him. We all get shocked in the moment - How could he have the unmitigated gall to say this shocking thing? But he delivers these shocks so regularly that nobody has time to fully process them. If a scandal blows up for more than two days, Trump will just do something else outrageous and the former story will be dropped to cover the new one. Trump is exploiting the media?s goldfish attention span. He?s overloading the news, giving them so much scandal that they don?t even have time to cover it all.


And his gall has extended to stunts like telling the intelligence community, to their faces, that all the bad things he said about them only weeks ago simply did not happen. How about the border wall with Mexico and deporting the Muslims, what about those campaign promises? If he accomplishes them, he?s crow about it, but if he doesn?t, he?ll deny he ever made them. It doesn?t matter how many printed copies of the truth you have. It doesn?tmatter how many videos you have incriminating him. Trump doesn?t even need a memory hole. His method counts on the American people to be really THAT stupid - and apparently, he?s right. How can a man brag about sexual assault, make cruel fun of handicapped people, and refuse to release his tax returns over and over, yet still make it this far? Isn?t it amazing? Well, he?ll keep doing it while everyone else is too stunned to know how to react.


Trump can?t lose, guys! Get used to it. He can just sculpt whatever reality he wants, and the truth will die off while the lies get screamed over and over until everybody believes them - just like his smear job against his opponent. He?s not quite the same as any politician you?ve heard of before. He?s evolved past a Nixon or a Bush. A prototype had to evolve out of the ooze sooner or later, and it?s shocking that it even took this long.


But yes, politicians have lied before, politicians have had scandals before. But Trump is simply dispensing with all the foreplay and sugar-coating. Other politicians have to spin the media and put on a good face to try to appease their way out of their scandals. Trump literally bragged he could ?shoot somebody and not lose voters.? He?s right, he could. And he?s not covering it up, he is pissing directly in your face and telling you it?s raining, and you?re going to believe it tomorrow or next week if you don?t believe it now. Other politicians bother to concoct some slippery lie when a reporter confronts them. Trump can just yell, ?I?m not going to give you a question, you are fake news!? AND. IT. WORKED! If Trump had told that reporter ?You?re a frog,? there is no doubt in my mind that that reporter would have poofed into a frog and hopped away croaking.


That?s what Orwell?s point with media was. Being able to out-debate the truth or hide the truth or P.R. your way out of the truth isn?t enough. You just erase the truth, magically in the public?s minds. Wasting your brain trying to fight it with logic is just how this strategy works against you.
That?s the key, people. Keep doing what you?re doing, and nobody will stop him. He doesn?t play by any rules written before.
Spot on.
 

kunedog

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Describing the media's support of the Obama administration (including the press and, yes, even selectively-censored internet forums/comments) as Orwellian is not an abuse of the term. The gatekeeping and one-sided coverage was so prevalent that I've seen plenty of folks try to describe him as "scandal-free" on his way out. Back during the campaign, we got a preview of just how much worse the narrative-pushing would have gotten under an HRC admin.

Trump and and plenty of conservatives are liars and buffons, but you don't get parlay that into "Our guys are good guys who tell the truth, because the press will never call them out!" Gamergate and a hundred other incidents exposed that game. Deal with it.

EDIT: For anyone who missed it:
 
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argatoga

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Describing the media's support of the Obama administration (including the press and, yes, even selectively-censored internet forums/comments) as Orwellian is not an abuse of the term. The gatekeeping and one-sided coverage was so prevalent that I've seen plenty of folks try to describe him as "scandal-free" on his way out. Back during the campaign, we got a preview of just how much worse the narrative-pushing would have gotten under an HRC admin.

Trump and and plenty of conservatives are liars and buffons, but you don't get parlay that into "Our guys are good guys who tell the truth, because the press will never call them out!" Gamergate and a hundred other incidents exposed that game. Deal with it.
No it isn't. 1984 was an allegory of the Soviet Union (if you study the Stalinist period you'll see Orwell's inspiration). Neither Trump nor Obama sent anyone to a gulag, nor did they create any kind of Ministry of Truth as anyone can speak out against them without fear of state persecution. You are both underestimating the scope of horror that was the Soviet Union Orwell was describing.

Anyway, so Trump finally signed some things and his actions can be judged.

1) He pulled out of the TPP, effectively killing it. Good.
2) Hiring freeze. Assuming it doesn't last any longer than a couple months I don't see a problem with this.
3) Reinstating the Mexico City Policy (NGOs can't use Federal funds to pay for abortions). This is idiotic, as access to abortions is what the third world needs as it reduces crime.

The positive of killing the TPP outweighs the other two for me.
 
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PelicanHazard

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2) Hiring freeze. Assuming it doesn't last any longer than a couple months I don't see a problem with this.
3) Reinstating the Mexico City Policy (NGOs can't use Federal funds to pay for abortions). This is idiotic, as access to abortions is what the third world needs as it reduces crime.
2) The executive order hiring freeze lasts at most 90 days, but who knows what the OMB plan that will replace it will entail. Honestly, the simplest plan they can come up with is simply waiting; about 1/3 of my department is eligible for retirement within the next 3 years, and other federal agencies have similar dispositions. However, my bosses at work are worried about a hiring freeze impacting transfer of knowledge; the Corps experienced a huge problem with that once before, when a reduction in force retired a lot of the experienced workers before new hires were onboarded, and the collective knowledge lost lead to a lot of issues maintaining the locks and dams. Guess we can only wait and see what the OMB plan is.

3) Not wholly unexpected. Every Republican president since Reagan has instituted it, and every Democratic president has removed it. I think it's stupid. Curious, though, argatoga, since there are now some actions you can judge: do you still think Trump is more of a centrist Democrat than a Republican?
 

argatoga

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2) The executive order hiring freeze lasts at most 90 days, but who knows what the OMB plan that will replace it will entail. Honestly, the simplest plan they can come up with is simply waiting; about 1/3 of my department is eligible for retirement within the next 3 years, and other federal agencies have similar dispositions. However, my bosses at work are worried about a hiring freeze impacting transfer of knowledge; the Corps experienced a huge problem with that once before, when a reduction in force retired a lot of the experienced workers before new hires were onboarded, and the collective knowledge lost lead to a lot of issues maintaining the locks and dams. Guess we can only wait and see what the OMB plan is.

3) Not wholly unexpected. Every Republican president since Reagan has instituted it, and every Democratic president has removed it. I think it's stupid. Curious, though, argatoga, since there are now some actions you can judge: do you still think Trump is more of a centrist Democrat than a Republican?
I'd say it's still too early to judge. TPP had supporters and detractors from both camps, and the hiring freeze isn't much of a stance in either direction. The Mexico City Policy leans Right, but not enough to push him into a "traditional" Republican.
 

kunedog

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No it isn't. 1984 was an allegory of the Soviet Union (if you study the Stalinist period you'll see Orwell's inspiration). Neither Trump nor Obama sent anyone to a gulag, nor did they create any kind of Ministry of Truth as anyone can speak out against them without fear of state persecution. You are both underestimating the scope of horror that was the Soviet Union Orwell was describing.
I concede that I'm accustomed to a lower standard of applying the word. For example, when the XBox One was launched, it included a mandatory peripheral called the Kinect--an HD camera + microphone that was powered on 24/7 in the living room (or bedroom)--and the console itself required daily (if not constant) connection to the internet to function. It could have been recording who-knows-what data (video and audio) then sending it who-knows-where (and who-knows-why). Because of its capabilities and Microsoft's insistence on forcing the thing down every buyer's throat, many described the Kinect as Orwellian (or just compared it to the telescreens, I forget) and I didn't have much objection to that. But, like you say, it wasn't forced by the government and folks had another choice in the PS4 (which they took by the millions, forcing Microsoft to abandon the Kinect), so maybe that was wrongheaded.

I'm aware of the Soviet allegory but my copy came with an attached essay cautioning readers not to get too hung up on that, because the story is also a warning about trends in the West. Of course the essay's not canon--Hell, maybe it was commie propaganda--but it stuck with me.

Killing TPP (for the moment, at least) is sweet. Speaking of reddit, does everyone remember when the SOPA and PIPA bills threatened to pass, so many sites including Reddit held an "internet blackout" to protest them, which worked? Well, for the TPP they did fuck-all to protest it and, in fact, went out of their way to censor discussion of it using a completely bullshit excuse:
Code:
http://i.imgur.com/fT11pIg.png
Anyway, that's part of why I don't like the way that redditor tries to downplay internet censorship.
 

argatoga

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I concede that I'm accustomed to a lower standard of applying the word. For example, when the XBox One was launched, it included a mandatory peripheral called the Kinect--an HD camera + microphone that was powered on 24/7 in the living room (or bedroom)--and the console itself required daily (if not constant) connection to the internet to function. It could have been recording who-knows-what data (video and audio) then sending it who-knows-where (and who-knows-why). Because of its capabilities and Microsoft's insistence on forcing the thing down every buyer's throat, many described the Kinect as Orwellian (or just compared it to the telescreens, I forget) and I didn't have much objection to that. But, like you say, it wasn't forced by the government and folks had another choice in the PS4 (which they took by the millions, forcing Microsoft to abandon the Kinect), so maybe that was wrongheaded.

I'm aware of the Soviet allegory but my copy came with an attached essay cautioning readers not to get too hung up on that, because the story is also a warning about trends in the West. Of course the essay's not canon--Hell, maybe it was commie propaganda--but it stuck with me.
I haven't read the essay, but it may have been making the point that totalitarian governments are the same regardless of the ideology. If you strip down the governments of Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union to their core they were fundamentally the same. Saddam Hussein was a Baathist (Arab fascism), yet he praised Stalin when he had a policy of publicly executing Communists on prime time TV.
 

MacGuffin

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I think you should consider alternative facts :p

You know, because lies from the White House are no longer lies but alternative facts ;)

Face it: Big Brother is watching you, the brainwash has already begun and I'm waiting for Newspeak to become the official government communication to the people.

Of course, when Trump speaks, he only adresses HIS voters and nobody else. In contrast to prior presidents he doesn't even bother giving the impression to care about the rest of the population.
 
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Blind_Io

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So, less than a week in and Trump has spent his time:

  • Lying about the size of the federal workforce
  • Whining about crowd sizes to the CIA
  • Calling press conferences just to yell at reporters for not lying about crowd sizes
  • Gagging the USDA and not allowing them to inform the public of any findings.
  • Lying about receiving awards "for the environment"
  • Undermining NATO
  • Undermining the US's status in the UN
  • Saying "environmentalism is out of control" despite claiming to get awards "for the environment"
  • Claiming that there were 3-5 million fraudulent ballots cast that cost him the popular vote, despite zero evidence that this is the case.
  • Dodging the Ethics Office and not turning over required documents
  • Suspends all EPA grants, still claims he gets "awards for the environment"
  • Watching TV for so long that his aids are "worried"
  • Meets with Congressional leaders, whines that illegal immigrants cost him the popular vote.
  • Managed to alienate China and Germany, both of whom have stated they will take over global leadership.
  • Merkel's aids report Germany has "given up hope that Trump will act like a president" due to Trump's behavior
  • Changed the White House website to include lies about DC homicide rates
  • Named his inauguration day "National Day of Patriotic Devotion"
 
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CraigB

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This is all just part of how he will make 'Merica Great Again, duh... :lol:
 

ahpadt

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Who needs scientific research when you can reopen coal mines instead, eh?
 

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So, less than a week in and Trump has spent his time:
Don't forget a possible conflict of interest regarding the pipeline executive orders:

USA Today said:
The president also signed a similar order on the Dakota Access Pipeline, a 1,172-mile pipeline from North Dakota to Illinois that has been the subject of heated protests. Trump once owned stock in Energy Transfer Partners, the company building the pipeline, although his campaign said he sold off all individual stock holdings last August. Trump has not yet filed a financial disclosure report to confirm the sale.
Where are his tax returns? That's right, they're not coming.
 
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Adamar

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I doubt any future president can ever trump him.
 

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It is too scary to consider, so we laugh.
 

Eye-Q

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Don't forget a possible conflict of interest regarding the pipeline executive orders
C'mon, by definition the president can't have a conflict of interest, Trump stated it himself:
From here
As far as the, you know, potential conflict of interests, though, I mean I know that from the standpoint, the law is totally on my side, meaning, the president can?t have a conflict of interest.
So that's that settled (for him at least)...

That guy is insane, everybody except his voters sees it, and he chooses to address only his voters, for him that's the problem solved...
 

gaasc

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Will that be his version of "When the President does it, that means that it is not illegal"?
 
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