The Trump Presidency - how I stopped worrying and learned to love the Hair

LeVeL

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Cliffs: NFL ratings are falling because a bunch of rich dudes that get paid to entertain us are throwing a tantrum and disrespecting the flag, the country, and the armed forces and fans don't like it.
 

_HighVoltage_

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Cliffs: NFL ratings are falling because a bunch of rich dudes that get paid to entertain us are throwing a tantrum and disrespecting the flag, the country, and the armed forces and fans don't like it.
Wrong. They are not your gladiators, and there is nothing in their employment contracts that constrains them to just entertaining us.

Personally, I think it's just another distraction from real issues. And it's kind of sad how so many have fallen into it, inadvertently making themselves look anti-American, which isn't going to impress anyone that isn't already on their side. In their attempts to snub Trump, they're being manipulated into snubbing America. Whether they realize it or not, that's exactly what it looks like. Snubbing symbols of our country that have nothing to do with Trump.

Of course, I don't think that was Trump's plan. I think he was just mouthing off as usual. There was probably a Colin Kaepernick story on Fox News that day, or something.
That's a better summary. But it has to be stressed that they didn't protest the flag, they protested someone telling them they should salute it or they will get fired. But you are right, to most people who ignored the context, it looked like they snubbed the flag.

"I love burgers. I eat them for lunch every day. But if my employer tells me I have to love burgers, or he will fire me, that will piss me off. I will refuse to eat the burger. But it's not that I no longer love the burger. I just don't want to be told to love it."

Trump can use rhetoric to persuade me of all the reasons why I should respect the flag. He crosses a line when he tells me I have to salute it because if I don't he will fire me. That's coercion, not patriotism.
 

prizrak

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Wrong. They are not your gladiators, and there is nothing in their employment contracts that constrains them to just entertaining us.
Umm... yes they literally are. They very specifically get paid in order to get hurt and hurt for our entertainment. Their opinion matters no more or less than yours or mine and they can express it at the polls. I don't watch sports or care either way but many people do and many of them simply don't want to see politics in their entertainment but just want to relax, this is the main reason NFL is getting all this flack.
 

_HighVoltage_

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Umm... yes they literally are. They very specifically get paid in order to get hurt and hurt for our entertainment. Their opinion matters no more or less than yours or mine and they can express it at the polls. I don't watch sports or care either way but many people do and many of them simply don't want to see politics in their entertainment but just want to relax, this is the main reason NFL is getting all this flack.
Read the sentence again, please. Yes, they are paid to play football, but that doesn't forbid them from doing other things, such as expressing an opinion. Their opinion doesn't matter more or less than ours, they just have an outlet that is not available to you or me. Nothing forbids them from using it.

And that was actually confirmed by Trump's statement - he asked "Wouldn't you love to see...?" He suggested a change of their contracts to forbid them from protesting, but as it is, they are within their rights. They still fulfill the duties of their job, they are just doing something extra.
 

prizrak

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Read the sentence again, please. Yes, they are paid to play football, but that doesn't forbid them from doing other things, such as expressing an opinion. Their opinion doesn't matter more or less than ours, they just have an outlet that is not available to you or me. Nothing forbids them from using it.

And that was actually confirmed by Trump's statement - he asked "Wouldn't you love to see...?" He suggested a change of their contracts to forbid them from protesting, but as it is, they are within their rights. They still fulfill the duties of their job, they are just doing something extra.
No one is arguing that they have the right to do w/e as long as it is legal, however they don't have the right to do it on company time aka during a football game, if the league allows them to do it fine but there is no assault on free speech for the league to tell them to STFU.

At the same time all the customers (viewers) have the right to not want to see/hear any of this and turn away from the business.

This is not to say that the players are right or wrong.
 

_HighVoltage_

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No one is arguing that they have the right to do w/e as long as it is legal, however they don't have the right to do it on company time aka during a football game, if the league allows them to do it fine but there is no assault on free speech for the league to tell them to STFU.

At the same time all the customers (viewers) have the right to not want to see/hear any of this and turn away from the business.

This is not to say that the players are right or wrong.
Sure. It will not be an assault on free speech if the league changed their contracts to forbid them protesting. But an employee can protest changes to their contract. For example, if your employer proposes to cut your pay in half, you would protest and threaten to quit.

Also, the consumer (viewer) has a right to not want to see or hear any of this, and that consumer has control over that - I can change the channel, and flip back when the actual game starts. If what you are saying is true, then it is a two-way street - I have a right to not want to see people celebrating the military at a football game, and similarly - I can change the channel. No one forces you to watch.
 

LeVeL

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Yeah and that's exactly what's happening - these entertainers are pissing people off and a) people are petitioning the masters of these gladiators to get control of them, and b) people are changing the channel and not buying tickets to see them play hand sausage. Nothing is stopping them from expressing their unsolicited opinions other than what I just described. In the end a lot of people want these dudes to run after a ball and hit each other, not express their g-ddamn political opinions.
 
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GRtak

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Cliffs: NFL ratings are falling because a bunch of rich dudes that get paid to entertain us are throwing a tantrum and disrespecting the flag, the country, and the armed forces and fans don't like it.
Where was the hate when he stayed on the bench during the anthem? For the record, there is no rule or law that requires you to stand and salute the flag during the anthem. The anthem is also not required to be played at any sporting events.


Yeah and that's exactly what's happening - these entertainers are pissing people off and a) people are petitioning the masters of these gladiators to get control of them, and b) people are changing the channel and not buying tickets to see them play hand sausage. Nothing is stopping them from expressing their unsolicited opinions other than what I just described. In the end a lot of people want these dudes to run after a ball and hit each other, not express their g-ddamn political opinions.


The "masters"? What the hell is wrong with you?
 

LeVeL

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Where was the hate when he stayed on the bench during the anthem?
Who is "he"?


For the record, there is no rule or law that requires you to stand and salute the flag during the anthem.
Tell me more about this "first amendment" thing, I've never heard of it before.


The "masters"? What the hell is wrong with you?
Going off the gladiators joke...
 

_HighVoltage_

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Yeah and that's exactly what's happening - these entertainers are pissing people off and a) people are petitioning the masters of these gladiators to get control of them, and b) people are changing the channel and not buying tickets to see them play hand sausage. Nothing is stopping them from expressing their unsolicited opinions other than what I just described. In the end a lot of people want these dudes to run after a ball and hit each other, not express their g-ddamn political opinions.
I can respect that, in the same way that I want a dude to run a country and not express unsolicited opinions about how football games should be run. And I'm not the only one who thinks that:
Donald J. Trump, 6:09 AM - 8 Oct 2013

President should not be telling the Washington Redskins to change their name-our country has far bigger problems! FOCUS on them,not nonsense

https://twitter.com/intent/retweet?tweet_id=387565483303923712
Nothing is stopping him, but that's not what people elected him to do.
 

prizrak

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I can respect that, in the same way that I want a dude to run a country and not express unsolicited opinions about how football games should be run. And I'm not the only one who thinks that:


Nothing is stopping him, but that's not what people elected him to do.
Well if you want to make the argument that Trump is a shitty POTUS with no understanding what being one actually entails and general lack of decorum you are not going to find me opposing you...
 

NecroJoe

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Cliffs: NFL ratings are falling because a bunch of rich dudes that get paid to entertain us are throwing a tantrum and disrespecting the flag, the country, and the armed forces and fans don't like it.
a) They were falling before one person did it.
b) The "rich dudes" are not doing it for themselves, they are using their platform to give a voice to those who feel they don't have it.
c) If you've actually read of listened to any interview of those who have participated in it, it's BECAUSE they have respect and love for their country, that they want it to be the best it can be, and calling out what they feel are injustices, tarnishing her glory.


Two great quotes I read over the last couple days:

"People who think these athletes are protesting the flag must think Rose Parks was protesting against buses."

"Since when did our sporting events turn into a required spectacle of nationalism and love for the military and police? Especially when it's two American teams playing against each other."
 
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LeVeL

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I can respect that, in the same way that I want a dude to run a country and not express unsolicited opinions about how football games should be run. And I'm not the only one who thinks that:
I don't have a problem with you criticizing the POTUS - what's your point?

Unlike most other countries (including some European ones), you have the right to free speech in this country. That means two things: 1) you're free to criticize or protest whoever you want, however you want; b) I have the right to find your protest disgraceful and withdraw my financial support of your business.


Well if you want to make the argument that Trump is a shitty POTUS with no understanding what being one actually entails and general lack of decorum you are not going to find me opposing you...
This really reminds me of how whenever Obama was criticized, Dems would scream "oh yeah??? Well Bush is an idiot!!!!!1!!" :lol: My disgust with these NFL bastards has nothing to do with Trump.


a) They were falling before one person did it.
b) The "rich dudes" are not doing it for themselves, they are using their platform to give a voice to those who feel they don't have it.
c) If you've actually read of listened to any interview of those who have participated in it, it's BECAUSE they have respect and love for their country, that they want it to be the best it can be, and calling out what they feel are injustices, tarnishing her glory.
What are they protesting, police officers shooting thugs?

I just had this conversation with a coworker earlier today. It is a verifiable fact that blacks commit more crimes (in proportion to population) than any other race. Before the resident SJWs scream "racism!", I will add that I am stating a fact and not implying that people with more melanin are genetically predisposed to crime - they're not! There are obviously social, economic, and cultural issues at play here.... HOWEVER, police officers are not paid to investigate government policies and social issues - they get paid to catch criminals, regardless of the socioeconomic conditions that may or may not have driven those individuals to a life of crime. I don't know why this simple truth is so difficult for (supposedly well-educated) progressives to get through their heads. There's zero evidence of a racial bias among LEOs!!!!!


"People who think these athletes are protesting the flag must think Rose Parks was protesting against buses."
Horrible analogy... See above.


"Since when did our sporting events turn into a required spectacle of nationalism and love for the military and police? Especially when it's two American teams playing against each other."
Not sure what's worse, Jaguars and Ravens playing in England and taking a knee for the US anthem but standing for the UK anthem, or the "Patriots" taking a knee...
 

LeVeL

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As my grandfather used to say, I want a new car and a color television!

Do you seriously not know these things? How can you even participate in these discussions when you clearly haven't done ANY research on the topic?

Actually, it's the democrats that keep defending the fact that more whites get arrested than blacks by saying that there are more whites than blacks in the US.

Here, I made it really fucking simple for you (I hope you can do math):



In before you fail to address the statistics and focus on being butthurt by my language.
 

prizrak

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NecroJoe

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What are they protesting, police officers shooting thugs?
Yep. Like unarmed people running away. Definitely deserved being shot in the back to death. And, yes. He plead guilty. Doesn't make it not happen.

Look, I have zero doubt in the crime statistics posted.

Some of those police instances where surely the catalyst for many to lace up their walking/marching shoes. And just like any large movement, you have some people who are using one thing as their cause, and some have others, but all tangentially-related and march together. For most, it's more of a scaled-back, less militant version of the less extremist views of the beginnings of the Black Lives Matter movement (I realize how long of a road that was to get to the end of that sentence). Yes, there are shitheads in that movement...but there are also people with genuine grievances in many aspects of black life in america (and can do so without looting or throwing bottles full of concrete), everything from how the public education system is managed, all the way down to the casual racism of me getting ignored in a store, but my black co-worker being greeted by basically every single employee in a store, and being not-very-discreetly followed until we left. In fact, it was so hilariously obvious, that we both took notice that while they were watching him, I could have robbed the store blind and they never would have noticed.

- - - Updated - - -

A higher percentage of whites is killed by cops than blacks:
Am I missing something? That data looks like the opposite of what you are saying. Blacks are 13.2% of the population, and 28% of those killed by police. Meaning a disproportionate amount higher, while whites make up 62.2% but make up only 50.9% of those killed by police...disproportionately lower. If you only have two men, one black and one white both representing the whole of their race, the black man is more than twice as likely to be killed by police.
 
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prizrak

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Yep. Like unarmed people running away. Definitely deserved being shot in the back to death.

Look, I have zero doubt in the crime statistics posted.

Some of those police instances where surely the catalyst for many to lace up their walking/marching shoes. And just like any large movement, you have some people who are using one thing as their cause, and some have others, but all tangentially-related and march together. For most, it's more of a scaled-back, less militant version of the less extremist views of the beginnings of the Black Lives Matter movement. Yes, there are shitheads in that movement...but there are also people with genuine grievances in many aspects of black life in america (and can do so without looting or throwing bottles full of concrete), everything from how the public education system is managed, all the way down to the casual racism of me getting ignored in a store, but my black co-worker being greeted by basically every single employee in a store, and being not-very-discreetly followed until we left. In fact, it was so hilariously obvious, that we both took notice that while they were watching him, I could have robbed the store blind and they never would have noticed.
Each instance of police brutality or unjustified killing should be investigated and the office prosecuted, but that's hardly an indication of racial bias in LEO.

Am I missing something? That data looks like the opposite of what you are saying. Blacks are 13.2% of the population, and 28% of those killed by police. Meaning a disproportionate amount higher, while whites make up 62.2% but make up only 50.9% of those killed by police...disproportionately lower.
Yes you are missing a disproportionally higher crime rate when adjusted to population, most significantly fatal violent crime. Also we are talking about likelihood of a fatal shooting by police, that likelihood is calculated out of total population not by percentage, so being white makes you twice as likely to get shot by cops, perhaps they don't much like white people?

Did you know that Irish used to be treated much like black people are now? In fact they were called white you know whats, so the Irish community leaders made a concerted effort to change public perception of the Irish and started pushing through Irish friendly politicians. They weren't crying about racism and disenfranchisement, so where are all the black leaders?
 
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NecroJoe

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62% of Black victims of violent crime are attacked by other blacks..
I mean...aren't you more likely to commit crime against people you are around the most? For whites, blacks, and Hispanic, the most common perpetrator of the crime is their own race.

Yes you are missing a disproportionally higher crime rate when adjusted to population, most significantly fatal violent crime.
...which isn't reflected in that data at all, and still makes the data say the opposite of what you said it was to represent.
A higher percentage of whites is killed by cops than blacks
Although...not I'm not sure if you mean by the structure of the sentence. Whites vs blacks or cops vs blacks. Are you saying that white people more likely killed by cops than black people are, or are you saying that whites are more likely killed by copy than they are killed by blacks?
 
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