The Trump Presidency - how I stopped worrying and learned to love the Hair

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Actual Illinois Nazis.
Reality has gone out for lunch...and I HATE Illinois Nazis!
 
I'm fully OK with the pendulum swinging far left, if only because the far-right is hell-bent on taking us back to the late 1800s socially.
Might wanna look up history of all other far left countries before you say that.
 
Might wanna look up history of all other far left countries before you say that.
Well, can we define the "left" before we go throwing around the typical talking points of the LvR argument?

When I say I want the pendulum swinging left, I mean I want a country run more like the Nordic countries. Not pure socialism, but not the breaking-capitalism that we have currently.

To me, we need more compassion in taking care of your fellow man, regardless of race, gender, religion, etc, etc. To me, this means getting rid of (or highly changing) the US' prison system, doing some form of socialized health care (which is an argument I honestly don't want to get into right now), having better border control that doesn't necessarily include walls or steel slats, stopping/reversing/slowing global climate change, etc.
 
Blind, I'll respond in detail later but I'll point out now that half of tour examples literally have nothing to do with race. For example, "Mexican" is a nationality and Islam is a religion.
Putting a veneer over racist motivations doesn't change what lies beneath it. Trump doesn't make the same distinctions about race and religion, he's equally xenophobic and racist and has been for over 40 years. Fred Trump, Donald Trump's father, was arrested at a KKK march for refusing to disperse when ordered to; the guy was a hard core "Christian" and was investigated multiple times for the same shit his son was later accused of doing.
 
Well, can we define the "left" before we go throwing around the typical talking points of the LvR argument?

When I say I want the pendulum swinging left, I mean I want a country run more like the Nordic countries. Not pure socialism, but not the breaking-capitalism that we have currently.

To me, we need more compassion in taking care of your fellow man, regardless of race, gender, religion, etc, etc. To me, this means getting rid of (or highly changing) the US' prison system, doing some form of socialized health care (which is an argument I honestly don't want to get into right now), having better border control that doesn't necessarily include walls or steel slats, stopping/reversing/slowing global climate change, etc.
Far left is communism, far right is fascism. These terms have been defined a while ago. Nordics is large government capitalism, US is smaller government capitalism, neither is socialist.
 
Far left is communism, far right is fascism. These terms have been defined a while ago. Nordics is large government capitalism, US is smaller government capitalism, neither is socialist.
Consideing that multiple sources are stating that the US is swinging hard towards fascism, maybe "far left" right now in the US is more moderate than people think?
 
Consideing that multiple sources are stating that the US is swinging hard towards fascism, maybe "far left" right now in the US is more moderate than people think?

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That's a nice graph. Its one of the first things I've seen that shows the divide over the years, and how it's growing. I've been reading a few articles that shows the Right moving further and further right, and the Left moving to Center so that they try to win over moderate Rights.

Do you have the article to go with it? I'm curious to read more.
 
Consideing that multiple sources are stating that the US is swinging hard towards fascism, maybe "far left" right now in the US is more moderate than people think?
I want to see swing to center, being far in either direction is bad
 
What is being called "socialism" in the US right now is the radical notion that people should have clean air and water, safe living environments, access to healthcare and education, that the rule of law should apply to everyone regardless of wealth, and that wages need to be livable.

Maybe if things like the cost of a non-profit college hadn't gone up over 200% in the last 20 years - that's nearly 8 times faster than wages are going up. According to the Federal Reserve, wages over the same period only went up 0.3% after inflation. Since the mid-2000s, colleges (even state schools) have been shown to give an edge in admissions to out-of-state students who pay more in tuition. Combine that with college loan debt being considered a "safe" investment by funds because it can't be defaulted on except by death and you have a financial system full of baby boomer retirement that is banking off the backs of their kids as they try to start out against a rigged system. Even state governments are getting in on it, buying up large chunks of student debt to make money on servicing the loans (looking at you, Missouri).

I don't think the "radical left" is all that radical.
 
He did not say that. What he did say was that there were "fine people" on the side that didn't want old statues taken down. He has, however, specifically called neo-Nazis "repugnant"; he has literally said that "racism is evil", and he has condemned "all types of racism".

The people protesting the removal of statues glorifying racist traitors were Neo Nazis, one of whom drove his car into a crowd of predominantly black protesters. It was only after days of being mocked and criticized for not clearly and unequivocally condemning the Nazi fucks that he went out and read the statement you reference like a 12 year old being forced to apologize while his father stands over his shoulder. No one who isn't an idiot actually thinks that was genuine. The fact is that he said there were "fine people on both sides" - but when one side is made up of Neo Nazis, he is calling them "fine people."

You can sue anyone for anything in this country. There was never a guilty verdict in that case.

This isn't someone filing a frivolous lawsuit because the neighbor's Yorki keeps shitting on the lawn, this was an entire state. Trump agreed to settle the case and said he would stop discriminating - while never saying that he did discriminate.

No, he has called MS13 animals.

While implying that imigrants were all murders, rapists, and drug dealers. It's fucking dog whistle to his base.

over that poser Kaepernick and his bullshit - does that mean that football fans are all racist? Also, ethnic minorities are statistically more likely to be involved in crimes - I'm not suggesting that this behavior is race related or anything - it's a social problem - but cops aren't social workers, their job is simply to pursue whoever committed the crime. This reminds me of Black Lives Matter and their obsession with shootings that are justified.

The NFL's ratings were in a nose dive already, but that's irrelevant. Kaepernick's protest is a civil matter between him and the team's owners, not something the President should be weighing in on at all. Ethnic minorities are also disproportionately affected by poverty, food scarcity, lack of healthcare, and lack of access to education. Due to a lack of resources, they are more likey to plead guilty, even when they aren't because their public defenders just push for them to plea out rather than fight the charges. Accounting for other variables, police are more likely to use force against someone who is a minority than a white suspect, they are also more likely to target minorities without cause or suspicion. You are trying to "say without saying" that they are more likely to be involved in crime because of their race, which is racist bullshit and exactly what Trump does.

Again, how is this racist???? Racism implies prejudice based on race!

Yeah, Trump would have totally done exactly the same thing if Obama had been white. :rolleyes:

Muslim isn't a race either. JFC...

Because Muslims are predominantly brown and Trump is an idiot. The same way he uses "Mexican" to refer to any immigrants from the south.

NO! He did NOT call "all" immigrants that! And guess what - it's a simple fact that there have been illegals that were "rapists and murderers".

He made a statement about Mexico sending rapists and murderers to the US. He didn't provide for exceptions, his base knows exactly what he's talking about - keeping brown people out. You keep trying these mental gymnastics to explain away each example, none of your explanations are plausible and none of your rationalizations address the bigger picture; a pervasive pattern of discrimination against brown and black people going back to before the 1970s and all the way to Fred Trump.

No, he cracked jokes about the fake Indian senator from my state.

Yeah, by making a joke about the Trail of Tears - literal genocide committed by this country and one of the darkest chapters of American history. I don't care if Warren is white or not, the joke was fucking racist.

Liz Warren, a Democrat, has spent her whole life lying about being a Native American - does that mean that all Democrats are racist? Ralph Northam, a Democrat, has worn blackface - does that mean that all Democrats are racist? Bill Clinton, a Democrat, is a fucking rapist - does that mean that all Democrats are rapists? Anthony Weiner, a Democrat, is a kiddy diddler - does that mean that all Democrats are pedos?

Democrats also called for Northam to step down, Bill Clinton is no longer in public office and allegations of his rape were not known during his presidency that I can recall. Warren claimed the heritage she was told she had, it wasn't until she submitted her own DNA for testing and released the results to hold herself accountable that she knew the true proportions of her DNA. Weiner was called on by the Democrats to resign when his sexting came to light. Even a star of the Democratic party, Al Fraken, stepped down after his misdeeds came to light.

But let's skip the whataboutism that you love so much and take a look at some data.

Here we have a break down by individual administration. Seeing a pattern yet?

3555081


Let's make it more clear by party lines.

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Wait, maybe this data is biased based on number of years in office, let's account for that.

3555083


....Oh, not looking good.

But wait, you love pointing out that an arraignment is not a conviction! Let's take a look at it case-by-case

President Barack Obama’s Administration
  • No appointed officials have faced criminal prosecution.
President George W. Bush’s Administration
  • Felipe Sixto—Office: Special Assistant for Intergovernmental Affairs as well as Duty Director at the Office of Public Liaison. Crime: Misuse of grant money from the U.S. Agency for International Development from before he took office. Result: conviction and imprisonment
  • Scott Bloch—Office: head the United States Office of Special Counsel. Crime: pleaded guilty to criminal contempt of Congress for withholding information from a congressional investigation. Result: conviction and imprisonment
  • Lewis “Scooter” Libby—Office: Chief of Staff to Vice President Dick Cheney. Crime: perjury and obstruction of justice in the Valerie Plame case. Sentence: imprisonment (commuted by George W. Bush)
  • John Korsmo—Office: chairman of the Federal Housing Finance Board. Crime: pleaded guilty to lying to Congress. Result: convicted but not imprisoned
  • Darleen A. Druyun—Office: Principal Deputy Undersecretary of the Air Force. Crime: pleaded guilty to inflating the price of contracts to favor her future employer, Boeing. Result: convicted and imprisoned
  • David Safavian—Office: General Services Administration Chief of Staff. Crime: found guilty of blocking justice and lying in the Jack Abramoff Scandal. Result: convicted and imprisoned
  • Roger Stillwell—Office: Staff in the Department of the Interior. Crime: Pleaded guilty to participating in the Jack Abramoff scandal. Result: convicted (imprisonment suspended)
  • J. Steven Griles—Office: Deputy to the Secretary of the Interior. Crime: pleaded guilty to obstruction of justice in the Jack Abramoff Scandal. Result: convicted and imprisoned
  • Italia Federici—Office: staff to the Secretary of the Interior, and President of the Council of Republicans for Environmental Advocacy. Crime: pled guilty to tax evasion and obstruction of justice. Resulted: convicted but not imprisoned
  • Jared Carpenter—Office: Vice-President of the Council of Republicans for Environmental Advocacy. Crime: pled guilty to income tax evasion. Result: convicted and imprisoned
  • Mark Zachares—Office: staff in the Department of Labor. Crime: bribed by Abramoff and guilty of conspiracy to defraud. Result: convicted but not imprisoned
  • Robert E. Coughlin—Office: Deputy Chief of Staff, Criminal Division of the Justice Department. Crime: pleaded guilty to conflict of interest after accepting bribes from Jack Abramoff. Result: convicted but not imprisoned
  • Kyle Foggo—Office: Executive director of the CIA. Crime: was convicted of honest services fraud in the awarding of government contracts. Result: convicted and imprisoned
  • Claude Allen—Office: Advisor on Domestic Policy. Crime: series of felony thefts in retail stores. Result: convicted but not imprisoned
  • Lester Crawford—Office: Commissioner of the Food and Drug Administration. Crime: pleaded guilty to conflict of interest. Result: convicted but not imprisoned
  • Bernard Kerik—Office: nominated to be Secretary of Homeland Security but confirmation derailed. Crime: employing an undocumented nanny two and other improprieties, and later two counts of tax fraud and five counts of lying to the federal government. Result: convicted and imprisoned
President Bill Clinton’s Administration
  • Bill Clinton - Impeached for perjury and obstruction of justice Result: Acquitted on all charges. Later attempt to file new articles of impeachment failed in the House. Later, Clinton was cited for contempt of court, fined $90,000 and his law license in Arkansas was suspended for 5 years.
  • Mike Espy—Office: Secretary of Agriculture: Crime: indicted on 30 counts of receiving improper gifts. Result: found not guilty of all charge
  • Ronald Blackley—Office: Chief of Staff to the Secretary of Agriculture Mike Espy. Crime: perjury. Result: Convicted and imprisoned
President George H. W. Bush’s Administration
  • Catalina Vasquez Villalpando—Office: Treasurer of the United States. Crime: pleaded guilty to obstruction of justice and tax evasion. Result: convicted and imprisoned
  • Iran-Contra Affair pardons—President George H. W. Bush granted clemency to five convicted government officials from the Reagan Administration as well as to Caspar Weinberger, whose trial had not yet begun. This action prevented any further investigation into the matter, potentially protecting Bush from being personally implicated. (Results tallied under the Reagan administration.)
President Ronald Reagan’s Administration
  • Melvyn Paisley—Office: Assistant Secretary of the Navy. Crime: pleaded guilty to accepting hundreds of thousands of dollars in bribes. Result: convicted and imprisoned
  • James E. Gaines—Office: Deputy Assistant Secretary of the Navy. Crime: accepting an illegal gratuity, and theft and conversion of government property. Result: convicted and imprisoned
  • Victor D. Cohen—Office: Deputy Assistant Secretary of the Air Force. Crime: pleaded guilty to accepting bribes and conspiring to defraud the government, the 50th conviction obtained under the Operation Ill Wind probe. Result: convicted and imprisoned
  • James G. Watt—Office: Secretary of Interior. Crime: charged with 25 counts of perjury and obstruction of justice. Result: convicted but not imprisoned
  • Deborah Gore Dean—Office: Executive Assistant to Samuel Pierce, Secretary of Housing & Urban Development. Crime: 12 counts of perjury, conspiracy, bribery. Result: convicted and imprisoned
  • Philip D. Winn—Office: Assistant Secretary of HUD. Crime: pleaded guilty to bribery. Result: convicted but not imprisoned
  • Thomas Demery—Office: Assistant Secretary of HUD. Crime: pleaded guilty to bribery and obstruction. Result: convicted but not imprisoned
  • Joseph A. Strauss—Office: Special Assistant to the Secretary of HUD. Crime: convicted of accepting payments to favor Puerto Rican land developers. Result: convicted but not imprisoned
  • Silvio D. DeBartolomeis—Office: Assistant Secretary of HUD. Crime: convicted of perjury and bribery. Result: convicted but not imprisoned.
  • Lyn Nofziger—Office: White House Press Secretary. Crime: indicted for lobbying. Result: convicted, but conviction overturned on appeal.
  • Caspar Weinberger—Office: Secretary of Defense. Crime: indicted on two counts of perjury and one count of obstruction of justice relating to the Iran-Contra Affair. Result: indicted by pardoned by George H. W. Bush before trial (accepting a pardon is admitting guilt)
  • Robert C. McFarlane—Office: National Security Adviser. Crime: convicted of withholding evidence in Iran-Contra Affair. Result: convicted but not imprisoned, later pardoned by George H. W. Bush
  • Elliott Abrams—Office: Assistant Secretary of State. Crime: convicted of withholding evidence in the Iran-Contra Affair. Result: convicted but not imprisoned, later pardoned by George H. W. Bush
  • Alan D. Fiers—Office: Chief of the CIA’s Central American Task Force. Crime: convicted of withholding evidence. Result: convicted but not imprisoned, later pardoned by George H. W. Bush
  • Clair George—Office: Chief of Covert Ops-CIA. Crime: convicted on 2 charges of perjury relating to the Iran-Contra Affair. Result: convicted but pardoned by George H. W. Bush before sentencing
  • Oliver North—Office: National Security Council staff member. Crime: convicted of accepting an illegal gratuity, obstruction of a congressional inquiry, and destruction of documents. Result: conviction overturned because it conflicted with the immunity he had been granted in exchange for congressional testimony (Your new NRA President, by the way)
  • John Poindexter—Office: National Security Advisor. Crime: convicted of 5 counts of conspiracy, obstruction of justice, perjury, defrauding the government, and the alteration and destruction of evidence. Result: conviction overturned by the Supreme Court
  • Duane Clarridge—Office: CIA senior official. Crime: indicted on 7 counts of perjury and false statements relating to the Iran-Contra Affair. Result: indicted but pardoned before trial by George H. W. Bush (Note: To accept a pardon is to admit guilt)
  • Richard V. Secord—Office: major general in the Air Force. Crime: pleaded guilty for organizing the Iran arms sales and Contra aid in the Iran-Contra Affair. Result: convicted but not imprisoned
  • Thomas G. Clines—Office: intelligence official. Crime: convicted on four income tax counts, including underreporting of income to the IRS and lying about not having foreign accounts. Result: convicted and imprisoned
  • Joseph F. Fernandez—Office: CIA Station Chief of Costa Rica. Crime: Indicted on five counts in 1988. Result: case dismissed when Attorney General Dick Thornburgh refused to declassify information needed for his defense in 1990.
  • Michael Deaver—Office: Deputy Chief of Staff. Crime: pleaded guilty to perjury related to lobbying activities. Result: convicted but not imprisoned
  • Anne Gorsuch Burford—Head of the EPA. Crime: Cut the EPA staff by 22 percent and refused to turn over documents relating to the Sewergate Scandal to Congress. Result: convicted of contempt but not imprisoned
  • Rita Lavelle—Office: an EPA Administrator. Crime: misused “superfund” monies and was convicted of perjury. Result: convicted and imprisoned
  • Melvyn R. Paisley—Office: Assistant Secretary of the Navy. Crime: participating in the Operation Ill Wind defense procurement scandal. Result: convicted and imprisoned
  • J. Lynn Helms—Office: head of the Federal Aviation Administration. Crime: plea bargained charges by the Securities and Exchange Commission with diverting $1.2 million from an issue of tax-exempt municipal bonds to his own personal use. Result: convicted but not imprisoned
  • Peter Voss—Office: US Postal Service Board of Governors. Crime: theft and accepting payoffs. Result: convicted and imprisoned
President Jimmy Carter’s Administration
  • Bert Lance—Director of OMB. Crime: indicted for misuse of funds during the sale of a Georgia bank to BCCI. Result: acquitted of all nine counts
President Gerald Ford’s Administration
  • Earl Butz—Office: Secretary of Agriculture. Crime: charged with tax evasion for failing to report more than $148,000 in 1978. Result: convicted and imprisoned
President Richard Nixon’s Administration

  • Spiro Agnew—Office: Vice President. Crime: convicted of tax fraud stemming from bribery charges, accepting a plea bargain that allowed for no prison time in exchange for his resignation. Result: convicted but not imprisoned
  • Watergate—Burglary and “bugging” of the Democratic Party National Headquarters at the Watergate Hotel and subsequent cover up. Crime: 69 government officials were charged and 48 convicted or pleaded guilty. Result: 48 convictions, at least 13 prison sentences.
    • John N. Mitchell—Office: Attorney General. Crime: convicted of perjury. Result: convicted and imprisoned
    • Richard Kleindienst—Office: Attorney General. Crime: convicted of “refusing to answer questions.” Result: convicted and imprisoned
    • Jeb Stuart Magruder—Office: Head of Committee to Re-elect the President. Crime: pleaded guilty to 1 count of conspiracy. Result: convicted and imprisoned
    • Frederick C. LaRue—Office: Advisor to Attorney General John Mitchell. Crime: convicted of obstruction of justice. Result: convicted and imprisoned.
    • H. R. Haldeman—Office: Chief of Staff for Nixon. Crime: convicted of conspiracy, obstruction of justice, and perjury. Result: Convicted and imprisoned
    • John Ehrlichman—Office: Counsel to Nixon. Crime: convicted of conspiracy, obstruction of justice, and perjury. Result: Convicted and imprisoned
    • Egil Krogh—Office: aide to John Ehrlichman. Crime: crimes relating to Watergate. Result: convicted and imprisoned
    • John W. Dean III—Office: counsel to Nixon. Crime: convicted of obstruction of justice. Result: convicted and imprisoned
    • Dwight L. Chapin—Office: deputy assistant to Nixon. Crime: convicted of perjury. Result: convicted and imprisoned
    • Herbert W. Kalmbach—Office: personal attorney to Nixon. Crime: convicted of illegal campaigning. Result: convicted and imprisoned
    • Charles W. Colson—Office: special counsel to Nixon. Crime: convicted of obstruction of justice. Result: convicted and imprisoned
    • Herbert L. Porter—Office: aide to the Committee to Re-elect the President. Crime: convicted of perjury. Result: convicted and imprisoned
    • G. Gordon Liddy—Office: Special Investigations Group. Crime: convicted of burglary. Result: convicted and imprisoned
  • Maurice Stans—Office: Secretary of Commerce. Crime: pleaded guilty to 3 counts of violating the reporting sections of the FEC Act and 2 counts of accepting illegal campaign contributions. Result: convicted but not imprisoned
  • Harry Shuler Dent—Office: Presidential Counsel and Strategist Harry Shuler Dent. Crime: pleaded guilty to violations of Federal election law. Result: convicted but not imprisoned
  • Jack A. Gleason—Office: White House Aide. Crime: pleaded guilty to violations of Federal election law concerning an illegal fund-raising operation run by the White House. Result: convicted but not imprisoned
  • Richard Helms—Office: Director of the Central Intelligence Agency. Crime: pleaded no contest to misleading Congress concerning assassination attempts in Cuba, anti-government activities in Chile and the illegal surveillance of journalists in the US. Result: convicted but not imprisoned
  • Donald Segretti—Office: Political Operative for the Committee to Re-Elect the President. Crime: ran a “ratfucking” campaign of dirty tricks for Nixon, pleaded guilty to distributing illegal (forged) campaign literature. Result: convicted and imprisoned.
So please, tell me more about how the Democrats are just as bad when the GOP has actual Nazis in office and long history of criminal activity. Can't wait to hear the whataboutism on this one.

iu
 
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... and that someone else needs to pay for it all.

Yes, that's how things work. How about we start with the top. The average American has seen an 11% pay raise from 1978 to 2014; in that same time, CEO pay has gone up 1,000%. By 2000, CEOs made 378 times more than their workers - as opposed to 1965 and the height of the middle class when the ratio was closer to 20:1. This is disproportionate to the increase in production- essentially, the pie hasn't gotten bigger, CEOs are just taking a larger slice for themselves; that means less money for the workers (you know, the ones that actually produce).

The real issues with higher education are two-fold: 1) irresponsible students taking out huge loans and majoring in useless shit that won't help them land a job, and 2) government guarantees on student loans encouraging bad investment, a la subprime mortgages. We need LESS government involvement in education, not more.
Yes, just ignore all the social issues of college profiteering that I just discussed and go back to blaming students for low wages, rising tuition, and a job market that won't even look at you unless you have a degree. Even if you do get a job, your earning potential is about the same as it was in the early 1980s, but the cost of getting the education is fantastically more expensive. This isn't about art majors, it's about every student regardless of major or career track starting out worse off than they would have at any time since the Great Depression.

Show me one time that less regulation has helped the little guy against large, established institutions. Libritarianism is a fairy tale that removed accountability from the power players so they can stay in power. Some of the greatest periods of growth in this country, including the rise of the middle class, happened under stricter banking regulations following a depression or major recession. And nearly every downturn in the economy started with the relaxing of those same regulations.

By all means, continue to parrot the same tired party line that got us here - ignore the evidence, ignore history, let's continue to burden future generations with a rigged system to generate dividends for the stockholders. Let's not have any accreditation at all, allow any fuckhead who wants to sell a dream to hang out sign and start a school. Oh... wait, didn't Trump do that? He did, didn't he, and his school was investigated for fraud and the subject of two class action lawsuits. Trump paid $25 Million to make the suits go away, then folded the business and disappeared all the documents before the state could fully investigate it.

Totally sells me on needing less accountability in education. :rolleyes:
 
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What is being called "socialism" in the US right now is the radical notion that people should have clean air and water, safe living environments, access to healthcare and education, that the rule of law should apply to everyone regardless of wealth, and that wages need to be livable.
Already the case last I checked.
Blind_Io said:
Maybe if things like the cost of a non-profit college hadn't gone up over 200% in the last 20 years - that's nearly 8 times faster than wages are going up. According to the Federal Reserve, wages over the same period only went up 0.3% after inflation. Since the mid-2000s, colleges (even state schools) have been shown to give an edge in admissions to out-of-state students who pay more in tuition. Combine that with college loan debt being considered a "safe" investment by funds because it can't be defaulted on except by death and you have a financial system full of baby boomer retirement that is banking off the backs of their kids as they try to start out against a rigged system. Even state governments are getting in on it, buying up large chunks of student debt to make money on servicing the loans (looking at you, Missouri).
Government backed student loans are one of the biggest reasons for college tuition going up, most of the cost increase in colleges are actually administrative rather than educational.
Blind_Io said:
I don't think the "radical left" is all that radical.
My problem with radical left is not their insistence on social programs, albeit I have not seen a single gov't program work even remotely well. It is the notion of group identity over individual. A certain amount of collectivism is required to have a society but IMO they are going way too far with it.
 
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