Trying to explain the Alfa Romeo position.....

kaBOOMn

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O.K I've been thinking of writing this for weeks, I've been a lurker (not reg'd) on this board for ages it erks me when people get upset and have a go at Jeremy Clarkson over his position on Japanese (mostly performance) cars and Alfa Romeo's. Also since the Alfa Romeo 159 and Alfa Romeo Breara are being reviewed by Topgear is a few weeks I needed to make this post before then, since a few points I'll make (will hopefully...lol) relate to this upcomeing episode.

First off I'll admit that Alfa Romeo's on the whole are not the fastest cars in the world, nor the best built :)? lol) nor the best cornering. Yet somehow the weighting of the steering, the feel, the crackle of the engines they use, the styleing and response are something that no other motor manufacturer has managed (or probably will manage) to replicate. They seem to understand how to make driveing (even tho your not the fastest) a thrill. Its a feeling that also cannot be replicated in a digital world -- Computer games.

This brings me onto the next point. The so called "Playstation Generation". Now I'll bet that a rather large group of the users on this board fit this group" be it by playing games like Grand Turismo or LFS (Doesn't really count since they are not real cars) and others. Now the majority of the people I know chose their future car "Community" based on the sort of cars they drove in the game. A friend of mine loved the Japanese cars in the game and recently purchased a Nissan S15 Silvia.

It seems that the bulk of people get into the Japanese cars based on their experience in these games. Now I've only played Gran Turismo once or twice and since I never owned a Playstation I do not know the game back to front. (I know somebody is going to have a go at me over this...lol 8) ) I don't know the ratio of Japanese performance cars to non Japanese cars....but does anybody get the impression that it is easier in a game like this to get into the Japanese cars?

While it has been said many times before that computer games are fantastic for advertising cars to the younger (and older) it seems that the Japanese motor manufacturers cottoned onto this form of advertiseing far quicker than western car makers. Since in a computer game you want a car that can win you the most races you normally get the fastest and easiest to get car to do so. Which supprise supprise turns out 9/10 times to be a Japanese car.

I asked a mate of mine why he didn't use any Alfa Romeo's when playing games like this and he replied saying (not a direct quote, but you'll get the point!) "They are too slow and just not interesting enough" O.K fair point but I tried to explain to him the passion and soul argument and he wasn't impressed. Because of his experience with this sort of game he will not even consider other types of cars. It seems while the digital world can display top end performance, it put across to the player the "feeling" of the car. *sigh* this is a hard post to write!!!!

I know where I live its very easy in real life to get into a Japanese performance car, and alot of the Japanese cars are very good but they ALL lack something.....

The point I'm trying to get accross (and am probably makeing a mess of it! :( ) is that alot of people dismiss cars like Alfa Romeo's for the simple reason that they don't look good on paper or in computer games. There is the "liveing with it" issue with AlfaRomeo 's where it takes 3 or so months to get the point of an Alfa Romeo. People take a 10 minunite drive and walk away saying "thats horrid" but they don't understand.

My introduction into the Alfa Romeo fold, came from when I got a job as a small workshop that delt with these cars. After many months I (eventually) got the point of Alfa's. On paper like I said before they looked slow, and inside (and out) they looked odd. Mechanically they where (compared to what I was used to) a nightmare. Everything seemed odd, and well wrong. Not in the intrests of reliability, or everyday use.

Simple things like friction ring syncros on Alfa gearboxes, while not being able to cope with as much abuse as the bork ring syncros found on other cars, cope much better on high RPM shifts. It seemed as if they had been designed as ready made race cars. Other parts included double counterweighted crankshafts as standard, fully cross drilled cranks, Di-dion rear ends with the gearbox in the boot, perfectly set out FWD syspension systems...the list goes on and on.

Finially it was the way they drove, sounded and felt. Look at any review of an Alfa Romeo you'll always get same conclusion. Brilliant to drive. Yet to get this brilliant drive you don't have to go really fast at all, infact many Alfas in history have been underpowered. I would not be supprised if JC soon comes to the same conclusion with the new Brera and 159. But so what? A dozen rounabouts will provide you wilth as much enjoyment as several high speed sweepers in another car. Now a Mitsi Evo 8 Lancer will probably eat the Alfa on the twisties but thats missing the point! The Lancer will probably make you look like a bit of a tool (no offense to anybody!) with that huge spoiler and aerokit.

With the passion and soul argument a lot of people use the Nissan Skyline as a example of a Japanese car with soul....but it just isn't. The design of the body is totally plain and bland while the later version (R34) looks like a car with a bunch of square holes cut in it. The RB engine (found in the R31-34) is down right terrible and produces one of the most hideous exhaust notes know to man. The problem is the way it drives. Yes you get pleasure from driveing around in one but most of the the pleasure seems to come from the fact that your just makeing every person who is into these sorts of cars jealous! Yes dynamically they are (GTR's only) brilliant and can hold cornering speeds that simply defy belief but it seems there is a little part of you saying "oooo everybody that has a Playstation is going to be sooooooooo jealous about this"

Now before the flames streak down on me, I know a Nissan RB upside down and back to front, and my day to day car is acutally powered by one. And its not really a standard RB, its a custom made Hybrid RB30 (that I made) and RB25...a 24v RB30 not the old 12v head. It has all sorts of technological gizmos on it inc water injection. So please, don't have a go at me about the RB.

While it is quite a powerful motor it seems to lack the passion and aural excitment of say a Alfa Romeo V6. The 2.5 and 3 Litre Alfa V6's (which has now been dropped :( ) are probably the best sounding 6 cylinder motors ever! Yes they are nowhere as near as powerful as a RB26DETT, RB25DET or RB30ET but they have a personality which the Nissan motors don't....infact the only Nissan motor I've come accross which had any sort of personallity was a MA09ERT. That motor was mad as a hatter!

Come to think of it no Japanese motor I've come into contact with has any sort of personality. :roll:

Sorry about my rant, I hope I've tried to get the "Alfa Romeo" point accross somehow and I hope you'll get some sort of insite into JC's comments when he reviews the new Alfa Romeo and some of his views on Japanese cars.

Oh and with this post I didn't mean to offend anybody, if I have I apologize in advance. :thumbsup:

For the record I own a Holden VL Calais Turbo, a wierd factory made combo of a 3 Litre Nissan Skyline Turbo engine, "Australianised" Opel Reckford body and a major restlyeing job (its my day to day car). The toy is a Alfa Romeo Gulia Super 2L like is found in the Italian job movie.......so I'm used to abuse about my cars.... :p

PS sorry about the bad grammer and spelling, which I'm sure are in the post.....
 
:welcome: That's quite a first post - you might however be interested in this thread.

kaBOOMn said:
Come to think of it no Japanese motor I've come into contact with has any sort of personality. :roll:

The 4AGE that lives in my MR2 is a pretty special piece of work...

Oh, this thread really belongs in General Automotive btw.

Edit: I should add - totally agree with your sentiments that cars should have soul and passion :thumbsup:
 
Wow...
That is a big post, unfotunately probably too big for most people to bother reading.
 
Welcome. Great first post.
I agree with you entirely, people should be looking at cars with feeling and personality. Italian cars in general have loads of it (even the cheaper ones), and Alfa Romeo is just a perfect example of that.
 
*sigh* what would Jeremy say?

The Alfa Romeo is like a good looking semi professional female athlete in normal clothes while the Evo Lancer is the middleage overweight lady who works behind the desk at the local chemist in skin tight training clothes with technocolour brand names strewn accross it.....but shes fast because she probably lifted some drugs from behind the counter but its not a good look! :thumbsdown: Sure the drugged up woman (on that day) may be better in a race, but the first one we all know is the real deal?

Hows that? Or have I gone tooooooooo far?
 
:welcome: You sure are passionate about Alfas and cars in general, which means you'll be welcome here. Stick around, we're a nice group. :D

Reading through your post, especially the part on the "Playstation Generation", the first thing that came to mind is the old saying "opinions are like assholes, everybody has one and they stink". Not everybody is going to be able to go out and test drive a Nissan Skyline R34 GT-R V-Spec Special Midnight Purple II Edition, but they own one in GT4 which means that they're obviously the reigning world expert on Skylines. Anybody can mouth off on any car; it's a problem most common in forums where Internet anomynity means that any tool can come along and claim that American cars are the cause of syphilis and WWII. (We're a bit better, hopefully.)

Anybody can drive a car around a track in a video game. But it's thorougly different when you're in a real car around a real track and get to feel the precision of a gearbox under your hand, the feel of the steering under your other hand, and the weight of the pedals below your feet while everything rushes at you in a vivid multi-sensory experience. No video game can capture that.

And I think you're too harsh on Mitsubishi EVOs. Sure, each to his own, but an overweight lady on drugs? Yikes, Jackie Chan (big fan of 'em) is gonna be pissed, and you deffo don't want to piss him off...;) You're also forgetting that the wing on the back of the Lancer is also functional, adjustable, and race-proven, and if it makes you look like a tool then that's an unfortunate side effect thanks to the likes of The Fast and the Fucktards who think it's cool to stick 'em on Dodge Neons or something.

I may be generalizing here, but Japanese cars simply aren't well-known for soul. For soulful cars you turn to the Europeans, namely England and Italy (and hey, Alfa Romeo is one of the best in that regard, which is why I'm a fan of them as well). Japanese cars are about precision engineering and efficiency, and if there's any soul in the process then all the power to that. Then again, defining whether a car has soul is difficult, and while you claim that every part on an Alfa Romeo feels like it was built for racing someone could say the exact same for the Skyline. Soul differs with every person.

Plus, I'd assume VTECs, especially the 2.0/2.2 liter one in the S2000, to be pretty special. Never driven one, so I wouldn't know (though I'd love to).

By the way, there's a "What's Your Car?" thread that you can post pics of your car in. We'll be looking forward to them. :wave:
 
Cheers, yeah I suppose I shouldn't have used the Mitsi EVO, but for the makeing the point I suppose its a good car.....

I have nothing personally against them dispite the fact that they are quite common here in modified car circles. Yes dynamics are wonderful (well more than that, some word has yet to be made up how good they are), but they miss the point.....they are not quite a "Q" car nor a pure sports car. I know I know Homogation cars are good fun all of them, but the point still stands.

Your showing off your need for speed, but on a Alfa Romeo your showing off your need for...well enjoyment? Or the fact that you are passionate at heart? Whats a better look to show off?

Germans are known for precision engineering and efficiency, the Japanese are known for makeing a car work everytime when you turn the key.....and then we have the Honda NSX (another topic again)

Oh and Blaro, thanks for shrinking down what I was trying to say in two paragraphs. :lol: That was a terrible post to write. I suppose its like trying to explain why the sky is blue or selling a ice machine to people who live on a glacia...

Cheers for the nice welcome anyway.....and to the Mitsi Evo guys I was just useing it as a example **Hides** :cry:
 
In every car-related forum or newsgroup that I've ever read I find that Alfa owners are the most passionate about their cars. No matter how underpowered or riddled with terrible mechanical and engineering flaws their cars are, they wouldn't change them for a German engineering masterpiece or a bulletproof Japanese electronic toy. There's certainly something about Alfas, and I tend to agree with Jeremy Clarkson when he says that every true petrolhead must own one at some point of his life. I don't agree with your views on the Evo, though. It's a brilliant car, which has character in his own way. No a character like an Alfa, but character nonetheless.

:welcome: and I hope you stick around for a while. This forum needs some true "alfisti" ;)
 
What about the Honda B Series motors?

It's fine what you said; everyone has their opinion however I dont agree with you the slightest

I have a 1999 Honda Accord SiR wagon; I got it because it had reasonable power for my needs, plenty of space in the back and it looks good :)

On the other had I have an EK Sedan which is used for racing, and on the other hand I would like to own an EF8 CRX SiR again for weekend driving.

Everycar has its purpose in life, the wagon for daily driving going to work and back in
EK for racing, being light, powerful, easy to fix and cheap parts
EF for weekend if I get one again, light and fast, engine parts are fairly cheap however body panels can be dificult and because they are mega rare now; not cheap to insure

The whole thing with Japanese cars is that they are fast and cheap; most cases incredibly easy to get power out of them
 
Hrm well I don't agree with you at all, lol. I suppose this is what makes this whole car thing great :D Hey look my day to day car is factory powered by a Japanese motor (RB at that), but has a chassis built by GM ;)

Why didn't Honda kill Ferrari with the NSX? Those looks, that sound, half the price but.......????? Really they must have missed something!

But back on topic to Alfa's, you have a sense its been designed for the enthusiast not the lower common denominator. Eg any car, say you base version Nissan Skyline (not all skylines are fast rocketships, 99% are slow, quite medicore cars) or what ever (hey Honda Civic "breeze"?) is designed to slowly get your Gran (or the worst driver) from A-B and do so reliably. Slow acceleration, slow shifts. You could never do that in a Alfa, for one thing you'd break the gearbox driving it like that! Unreliable and tempermental to the average driver, thats really a defineing point on Alfa's.

Sorry its almost impossible to make somebody understand why people love Alfa Romeo's and why people have had (and have) contact with these sorts of cars hold the owners with mainstream Japanese cars in such low regard (or is it that we pity them?). I really really really mean no offense to anybody. Sorry if I have, but I'm just trying to get a point accross.

People get uptight when JC has a go at Japanese cars. I can really see why, but a lot of people can't. I'm just trying to shed light on this subject.
 
I wrote out a nice long post but all you really need to see is the following 9 minute long, 3 lap race

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AbL1mtXW4EI&search=nsx ferrari race

911 Carrera 4S, Biturbo GT500, NSX-R, Murceilago, 911 GT2, F50 all in the hands of Japans best
:thumbsup:

NSX wasnt made to be driven by some albino wanabe; a Ferrari is fast even in the hands of a 3 year old

It dosent take a rocket scientist to figure out that the NSX lacks power compared to most supercars, but any knob can put a turbo charged v12 into a car and make it fast; making it go around corners fast is a different story
 
yeah yeah i get it their built like dogs and only morons drive them i get it

jks :)

Everyone has their own prefferences :thumbsup:

You love Alfa, I love Honda, Jeremy loves James but James loves Hammand who loves TGD

:bangin:
 
Ok, I HAVE to say mine on this alfa romeo subject.... by the way, this is my first post, so hello to everyone :D

i have to reply as i am the happy owner of two alfas -- a 1972 Gt Junior 1.3 litre and a brand new 147 1.9... emm JTDm 16v.
even though i bought a diesel (what a shame), it still has 150 bhp and is sheer excitement to drive. not talking about the Gt -- it's a simple small 1.3 litre engine that chunks out around 100 bhp... and that's its beauty. when you rev up you get that astonishing sound that you wouldn't expect from such a small engine. this about the engines... but that's not everything.
i really love my cars, they look stunningly beautiful and every time i drive them people turn their heads... i know it's too simple and childish to talk just about the looks, but hey it's nice to draw the attention!
about the 147 -- it's the new model (should say 'mark II'), i haven't seen one like mine, say, on ebay.co.uk so i dont know if it is available outside of italy... anyway, have a look at the alfa romeo site and you'll get the idea. anyway, even if i had to stick to the diesel powered version, it still has great power and is sheer brilliant to drive: perfect steering (and i really mean it's perfect), good handling and everything. and those looks... i parked it near an audi s6 the other day and reckoned mine was nicer... well that's maybe because i dont like audis :lol: . i am very happy with it, it still hasn't broken down yet (i'm crossing my fingers here!) and, even though there are a lot of them circulating in the streets round here, you never get tired of its beauty... the Golf may be pretty, but the 147 is a class of its own.
yeah it's true that alfas dont have all the power in the world (very sad that the new spider -- 35k+ euros -- has only 185 bhp..), but it's not about the top speed, as there always will be faster cars, it's about the feel... everyone should have a go in one of them.
and then there's its history.... one of the oldest and best italian manufacturers, gave birth to the scuderia ferrari (making old man enzo ferrari cry when he got the beat them and say 'i killed my mother'...), collected winnings in formula1, touring championships and a lot of other races and so on.... forgetting those dark ages when first fiat bought the company, now the new models are true masterpieces. and yes they're gonna make the 8c competizione next year, and i'm preparing to sell both my lungs to get one.

it's just my opinion, but i may fancy japanese cars, their smartness and speed, but for me they could never do anything against an alfa romeo... just my two cents. alfas are cars you love with you heart, they're the right opposite of 'tool for getting from A to B'. when they break down, you are worried and sad and cannot wait to have them back under you bottom, roaring and lightening up your day. i agree with JC that every true petrolhead should own one at a point in his life. and enjoyed very much his video about the 166 -- i think he made my point perfectly.
i think it's like with the vauxhall monaro -- may be not the best built or reliable or powerful vehicle ever made, but it surely puts a huge smile on your face.
 
This just in: Some people like certain cars, other people like different cars.

More as we get it.
 
no you don't.....lol :bangin:

Welcome fellow Alfisti, RomanF :D As of yet I havent personally driven a 147, they are quite expensive out here. Still if its anything like a 156, then I'll be happy :)
 
First, I want to say that this is about the best entry post I've seen in any forum so far. Not only because of the subject, but also for it's quality, the passion to explain something in detail (damn, my German side is coming through :nazilock: ) and to be polite and understanding at the same time. :thumbsup:

Back to topic though... I absolutely agree that there's something about Alfas you don't get if you haven't driven or even been sitting in one. Some people never get it, but the majority will understand that they have something other cars just don't have. Especially the Gran Turismo generation (I actually also belong to :lol: ) will not like Alfas as long as they judge them by the game.

Some months ago, I was lucky to make a test drive with the new Brera, equipped with the 3.2 litre V6. Although this car is ridiculously heavy for its size (almost 1800kg at 4.41 metres), it handles beautifully and sticks to the road like glue. Also, it has a quality and classiness feel to it almost no other car can give you. But Alfa shall be careful, cause this bella maccina has a problem - the engine. Instead of the incredibly beautiful Alfa V6 with the six polished chrome tubes, this one has an engine from General Motors, which runs out of steam at high revs. It pulls you forward like nothing when you roll along on a wave of exhaust noise, but when you give it the berries, it won't rev like you're expecting it to do. That doesn't put me off this car completely, but I'm a bit scared that Alfa will lose some of their Alfaness if they contuinue to walk this way.

Anyway, I do understand what Alfas are about, and I can only recommend everyone that doesn't: go and have a test drive in one!

Regards
the Interceptor
 
the Interceptor said:
Instead of the incredibly beautiful Alfa V6 with the six polished chrome tubes, this one has an engine from General Motors, which runs out of steam at high revs.

yep -- you're right. the new 3.2 engines are shipped from australia to arese, italy (just a few km's away from my place), where alfa technicians add an alfa romeo built and designed aluminium 'head' (how's that called in english?). so it's not the good ol fashioned alfa v6. bit sad, but hey... that's fiat's market strategy :(
 
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