Tuning a Mustang

[Ryotsu]

I would like to know if it's possible to tune a new Mustang WITHOUT buying a tuning chip. I've heard bad things about those tune you get in a box, they're also quite expensive. Can I tune my 2012 Mustang without an aftermarket tuner? If I really NEED one to tune it, is it really worth it? If I can tune without an aftermarket tuner, how? If this should be in another thread, or this thread has already been done, please tell me.

 

[Spectre]

You will need a tuner.

However, from what I've read there isn't a lot you can economically do to the V6 as of yet and it's just not worth it in any case; your best bang for the buck is to trade for the 5.0. Sorry.

You're looking at spending a few thousand dollars just to get close to the stock 5.0's output and even then you're stressing the weaker V6 drivetrain. On the other hand, just putting a well-engineered cold air intake on the 5.0 plus a retune gets the otherwise stock car into the 11s in the quarter plus over 400RWHP.

 

[Ryotsu]

You will need a tuner.

However, from what I've read there isn't a lot you can do to the V6 as of yet and it's just not worth it; your best bang for the buck is to trade for the 5.0. Sorry.

Damn. And you know I only bought the V6 because I couldn't afford a V8. When you said 'as of yet' do you mean in stock conditions? Or do you mean that they haven't released anything aftermarket that would make it worth it?

 

[Spectre]

Damn. And you know I only bought the V6 because I couldn't afford a V8. When you said 'as of yet' do you mean in stock conditions? Or do you mean that they haven't released anything aftermarket that would make it worth it?

There isn't anything aftermarket that I've heard of, either existing or in the works, that will make it worth the expense. Someone might someday, but it seems unlikely. The problem is that anything you can do to the V6 to get its performance up anywhere near where the 5.0's is out of the box... is going to cost you more than just buying the 5.0 will. If you thought you'd get the V6 cheap and build it up to a 5.0 equivalent for less, you made a big mistake, sadly. This has pretty much been the case since the Fox body and its 3.8L V6. Best thing you could do for one of those was an engine, suspension, axle and drivetrain swap from a 5.0 of that era that had been wrapped around a tree and was purchased stupid cheap.

It'd be another story if it was a turbo motor like the trucks have, but it isn't. Which, probably, was why it's not a turbo.

 

[Ryotsu]

There isn't anything aftermarket that I've heard of, either existing or in the works, that will make it worth the expense. Someone might someday, but it seems unlikely. The problem is that anything you can do to the V6 to get its performance up anywhere near where the 5.0's is out of the box... is going to cost you more than just buying the 5.0 will. If you thought you'd get the V6 cheap and build it up to a 5.0 equivalent for less, you made a big mistake, sadly.

No, I knew I wouldn't be able to get my V6 up to the level of the V8... except maybe with nitrous. That might be dangerous though, as I live near San Diego, with a major Navy base... lots of aircraft carriers...

Guess I'll just wait until I get a job, then do a V8 swap. Why stop at the 5.0 though? Ford makes bigger engines for not much more money.

 

[Spectre]

No, I knew I wouldn't be able to get my V6 up to the level of the V8... except maybe with nitrous. That might be dangerous though, as I live near San Diego, with a major Navy base... lots of aircraft carriers...

Guess I'll just wait until I get a job, then do a V8 swap. Why stop at the 5.0 though? Ford makes bigger engines for not much more money.

You might want to check out what's involved with that. It's more than just the engine. You will also have to gut the car and install new wiring harnesses and a computer as well as most of the rest of the drivetrain. That isn't a typo; the V8s come with a different transmission, which, under California law, you will have to bring too (not to mention I don't think the V6 gearbox can handle the V8's power.)

There are also other laws regarding engine swaps in California that you will need to abide by. This includes being limited to CARB and EPA approved configs, so the 5.0 is as big as you can go, that being the largest currently certified N/A engine Ford offers in the passenger car class. You could also go with the blower 5.4.

IIRC, someone over on the Corral already ran the numbers on that. Even assuming you get a wrecked donor 5.0 at half going insurance auction rates, it *still* costs more than selling the 3.7 and getting a used 5.0, even before you turn a wrench.

 

[NecroJoe]

Or, you could just trade up...I couldn't imagine buying a 5.0, going through all you'd need to install it and trying to sell the v6 would be anything but way-more expensive than just getting a 5.0 later...

 

[MattD1zzl3]

Maybe trading the new V6 for an older v8 mustang? is the 4.6 really that much worse?

 

[Spectre]

Maybe trading the new V6 for an older v8 mustang? is the 4.6 really that much worse?

Yes. The 32V 5.0 is a huge leap forward - as large a leap as from the LT1 to the LS6. For starters, the 5.0 Coyote has VVT for all four cams and the 4.6 doesn't. Eight extra valves help a lot, too, and word is that the 5.0 has been deliberately detuned for the GT, yet we still have examples showing 360+ at the rear wheels out of the box. That's about what a stock Terminator Cobra could do on a good day, and it had to have a blower to do it.

 

[Ryotsu]

You might want to check out what's involved with that. It's more than just the engine. You will also have to gut the car and install new wiring harnesses and a computer as well as most of the rest of the drivetrain. That isn't a typo; the V8s come with a different transmission, which, under California law, you will have to bring too (not to mention I don't think the V6 gearbox can handle the V8's power.)

There are also other laws regarding engine swaps in California that you will need to abide by. This includes being limited to CARB and EPA approved configs, so the 5.0 is as big as you can go, that being the largest currently certified N/A engine Ford offers in the passenger car class. You could also go with the blower 5.4.

IIRC, someone over on the Corral already ran the numbers on that. Even assuming you get a wrecked donor 5.0 at half going insurance auction rates, it *still* costs more than selling the 3.7 and getting a used 5.0, even before you turn a wrench.

To which California law do you refer? Ford Racing sells the 5.4 liter V8 out of the Shelby for about 11500. Even with the 7000 for a supercharger, 6000 it still doesn't cover the difference between a used V6 and a new Shelby.

 

[Spectre]

Add the specific transmission that came with it, along with all the control computers. And the wiring harnesses.

http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermkt/replace.htm

Engine Changes
Engine changes are legal as long as the following requirements are met to ensure that the change does not increase pollution from the vehicle:

The engine must be the same year or newer than the vehicle.

The engine must be from the same type of vehicle (passenger car, light-duty truck, heavy-duty truck, etc.) based on gross vehicle weight.

If the vehicle is a California certified vehicle then the engine must also be a California certified engine.

All emissions control equipment must remain on the installed engine.

Vehicles converted to 100% electric drive, with all power supplied by on-board batteries are considered in compliance with the engine change requirements. All fuel system components must be removed prior to inspection. For additional information contact the ARB helpline at (800) 242-4450

Transmission or Transaxle
Transmissions and transaxles changes alone are not legal. Transmissions and transaxles can only be changed along with their matching engine. The total engine transmission package must conform to the engine change requirements above.

You swap the engine, you must either already have the same transmission variant it came with (you don't) or you have to find and install it. Yes, this means my XJ6 with the 700R4 swapped in is illegal in CA.

There are some exceptions, but they have to be specifically approved by CARB with an EO. GM got one through, here: http://wot.motortrend.com/keep-it-c...ot-on-gm’s-new-e-rod-crate-engine-105975.html

Don't need to swap trans with that, thanks to the EO. But note what all it comes with. The Ford Shelby crate motors don't come with computer or wiring harness.

 

[CAPT_Howdy]

Unless it's from a 2012 Shelby, you wouldn't be able to put it in your car.

The engine that you're swapping cannot be older than your chassis.

Edit: Damn it, Spectre beat me to it.

Also, where are you getting your prices? I checked the Ford Racing catalog and the only 5.4 crate engine I saw goes for $20,999.00. That is well on your way to a CPO 2011+ GT. Plus, it's from a 2011 Mustang and therefore not legal for your car.

 

[Ryotsu]

California sucks... I'm moving to Arizona. Do they have those laws in Arizona? Anyone here live in Arizona who might know?

 

[Spectre]

California sucks... I'm moving to Arizona. Do they have those laws in Arizona? Anyone here live in Arizona who might know?

That was at least partially the conclusion I came to in 1995.... I kept going further east, though.


Unfortunately, Arizona is one of the states that's actually enforcing the not-dissimilar Federal law. Law: http://www.epa.gov/compliance/resources/policies/civil/caa/mobile/engswitch.pdf
Cite: http://forum.ih8mud.com/60-series-wagons/387955-update-az-engine-swaps-ouch.html
Cite 2: http://www.virtualjeepclub.com/showthread.php?53160-Az.Engine-Swap-info-needed...

The Fed standard doesn't care about the transmission, though you will still need all the pollution controls, the wiring harnesses, the PCM, etc., etc. Though unlike CA, you can bolt 'unapproved' power adders on and unless they screw with your emissions or smog equipment (most don't now), nobody will care.

See what I mean about it just being cheaper to sell the 3.7 and get the 5.0?

 

[Ryotsu]

That was at least partially the conclusion I came to in 1995.... I kept going further east, though.


Unfortunately, Arizona is one of the states that's actually enforcing the not-dissimilar Federal law. Law: http://www.epa.gov/compliance/resources/policies/civil/caa/mobile/engswitch.pdf
Cite: http://forum.ih8mud.com/60-series-wagons/387955-update-az-engine-swaps-ouch.html

The Fed standard doesn't care about the transmission, though you will still need all the pollution controls, the wiring harnesses, the PCM, etc., etc. Though unlike CA, you can bolt 'unapproved' power adders on and unless they screw with your emissions or smog equipment (most don't now), nobody will care.

See what I mean about it just being cheaper to sell the 3.7 and get the 5.0?

What do you mean cheaper? At this point moving out of California sounds like a major plus. Also, seeing as I'm on a S197 chassis, the same thing they've been building the Mustangs on since '05, I could get a 2010 Shelby engine. I don't think all the extra wiring will come to more than 5 grand either.

 

[Spectre]

No, actually, you can't. Must be a 2012 Shelby engine. Federal law says "same year or later only." And since Arizona is actually enforcing that law, well, you're SOL.

It is cheaper to sell the 3.7 and buy a 5.0 than it is going to be to do an engine swap.

 

[Ryotsu]

Do you know what state is good for that kind of thing? What if I wanted to put a big V10 out of a 90's ford pickup truck? (for example, I know it would suck)

Ford Racing sells that engine with the supercharger on it already. If you buy one without a supercharger, it's about 11500. It's under the Mustangs category. Look under the complete engines subcategory.

 

[MattD1zzl3]

I was suggesting the old 4.6 in lieu of his current V6, if he could afford a 5.0 he would have one by now. If im wrong and you can afford it i say go for it.

 

[Spectre]

Do you know what state is good for that kind of thing? What if I wanted to put a big V10 out of a 90's ford pickup truck? (for example, I know it would suck)

Technically, that's illegal in all 50 US states and Puerto Rico. It's a truck engine into a car that didn't come with it and it's banned by EPA regulations.

In practice, it varies from state to state. States with no inspection at all are generally pretty safe since unless you get pulled over by a cop determined to find something wrong or work on a Federal reservation there is almost zero chance of you getting caught in that state. On the other hand, you tend get tons of rolling wrecks on the roads in that scenario so you might not find that such a great idea.

Not all inspection states are equal either. For example, if you live outside of a few heavily urbanized counties (and the ones just outside them) in Texas, there's no emissions testing and the all-counties safety check doesn't involve them opening your hood at all unless there's fluids, flame or smoke coming out from under it. There's guys running around with Cummins-diesel-from-the-truck-they-broke-the-chassis-on-powered Impalas and the like out in our hinterlands as a result. Illegal? Yes. Done in any numbers? No. Does anyone outside of Austin care? No.

 

[Ryotsu]

So, I'll just live in an underpopulated area an not drive like a dick on the public roads? I'm ok with 'not strictly legal'. Is that really the only way to do it?

I talked to a guy who had a FactoryFive Cobra replica (in California), and he told me that since he's on a replica of a car from 65, that car uses the laws from 65. I checked factory five's website, and it doesn't look ruinously expensive. And you can fit a modern 5.0 in it... with a supercharger. I'll just have to wait a little longer to make up that cash. Either the Factory Five Cobra or some bike are swiftly looking like better options for going really fast on not much cash.