US of A Presidential Elections 2012

You also live in a country with at tax rate over 50 to 60% meaning you go to work and give half your money away!
I'd just like to point out, in a factual manner, that this is the fundamental difference between US liberals and conservatives. MacGuffin just said that he lives in a country where he doesn't have to worry about health care, and alaskarat said that's a bad thing because he goes to work and the government takes half of his money.

In an opinionated manner, alaskarat, you are what's wrong with this country right now. If it weren't for people like you, we could have some decent reforms of horrifically broken systems in this country, and could even have some money to pay for them if we could reform the horrifically broken tax system. For you to seriously insinuate that you would rather pay comparatively (to the world) low income taxes than have to ever worry about a medical bill again is not only short-sighted on your part, but incredibly ideological and somewhat selfish. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

Furthermore, expanding from the health care debate to a larger discussion about tax rates, have you seen countries that have what we would consider high tax rates? They're fucking fantastic. I would love to pay almost 50% in taxes if this country would be more like, say, Sweden and less like... well, like us now.
 
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You also live in a country with at tax rate over 50 to 60% meaning you go to work and give half your money away!

...except that he doesn't. Assuming he earns 60k? annually (quite a lot, and as high as this chart goes) and is single without kids (worst income taxes) he would pay a tax rate of about 28.5%.
 
Okay nomix I hate to say it but you have made a good point on the interest in the US, you have done well. I still will never ever agree with your health care plans nope not ever actual it makes no sense to me to continue on with that argument so I will not. I am what is called a States? Rights Advocates which means I believe in a limited Federal Government and I believe that is how the Constitution and our founders wanted it. I too am glad we don?t have a national church; we saw how that worked out in Europe, things like Prince Bishops.
When I was in Norway many a Viking told me tales of their beloved King Olav. How he was known to ride on the train(?). nomix I also want to make clear since our debate seems pretty heated that I truly enjoyed my stay in your country you folks are very friendly. Norway is the first place I saw the Northern Lights in a cow pasture lol.


You said you live in a state that provides health care, yet you don't want anyone else to have it. Why? Why would it be a bad thing to have one less thing to worry about in life?

I am no fan of the current health care bill, it is nothing more than corporate welfare. But if they would simply remove the age restrictions from medicare, everyone would be covered.
 
You said you live in a state that provides health care, yet you don't want anyone else to have it. Why? Why would it be a bad thing to have one less thing to worry about in life?
This is what I just don't understand about the conservative debate now.

Why is universal health care such a negative thing that even "Romneycare" is considered terrible? It isn't even a bad plan, and there wasn't even any substance behind the attacks. Is every conservative voter on the health care lobby dime or something?
 
The impression I have is, that many Americans are so afraid of the state interferring with their life, that they even fight against it, when it's actually doing them good. Obviously there is a twisted and quite irrational "Once Pandora's Box is opened..." fear behind that and they'd rather suffer, than letting it happen. No words or arguments are able to break down that wall of fear.

Isn't it ironic? The country that considers itself the freest in the world, is actually held tight in the grip of its people's fear of their own "evil" government.

As I said: That is my impression.
 
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Personally I think that GOP people do not want to be forced to pay for the health care of the weak/sick. They want to pay for what they use and do not at all see the advantages of the aggregation of a huge population rather than the individual assessment of each and every case. Well if the majority feel like that then health care could/will be reversed under the next GOP President with a compliant congress.

Actually, I do not think that the Democrats are really that keen on the issue and would not mind it vanishing.

Hell I wish Colin Powell would stand, I wish he'd stand over here for that matter. I think that he is a great leader and a very clever man. I suspect that he would never stand though, pity.
 
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I think that he is a great leader and a very clever man.

So he is overqualified for the job...

Besides, he has a very nasty character flaw, too: He's honest.
 
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This is what I just don't understand about the conservative debate now.

Why is universal health care such a negative thing that even "Romneycare" is considered terrible? It isn't even a bad plan, and there wasn't even any substance behind the attacks. Is every conservative voter on the health care lobby dime or something?

As someone on "Romneycare" with major health issues, I will tell you it does in fact suck. It is awesome if you are healthy or have "normal" health issues but if you have something weird and want to see a doctor actually qualified to treat or diagnose you, you are pretty much fucked. There are bunch of hidden loopholes you won't find out about until you try and see a certain doctor and you often have to have a huge battle if you want something covered. Tests are often barely covered at all and the big one I had in January ended up costing me like 800$. There is also the big problem of them legally requiring you to have health care, but since mine ran out I don't have any now because the paperwork is so slow. I will be charged a shitload of tax money because of that later. Because of the weird contract rules they have a lot of the doctors are flat out refusing to see me right now even if I offer to pay in cash.

So yes, still a totally broken system even if it is better than the rest of the country.
 
The differene between a good healthcare system and a bad healthcare system is, that a good healthcare system is a pain in the arse for the healthy most of the time but beneficial for the seriously ill.

With a bad healthcare system it is the other way round.

In the end it tells a lot about the willingness for solidarity in a society.
 
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Well, it's billed as universal health care and that is what it is. A "one size fits all" hat that fits the average person but the people with odd shaped heads will have to special order one. :dunno:
It is perfectly adequate for most people, so it will get the politicians their desired approve rating as it will be great for the person who gets common treatable illnesses that can be identified and fixed rather quickly because they don't have to sit there contemplating "at what point am I sick enough to go to the doctor?" so they go in before a simple thing turns serious and hard to treat.
 
Okay nomix I hate to say it but you have made a good point on the interest in the US, you have done well. I still will never ever agree with your health care plans nope not ever actual it makes no sense to me to continue on with that argument so I will not. I am what is called a States? Rights Advocates which means I believe in a limited Federal Government and I believe that is how the Constitution and our founders wanted it. I too am glad we don?t have a national church; we saw how that worked out in Europe, things like Prince Bishops.
While religion is not a part of the US government, it's still a part of US government. If you understand what I am saying. I won't say I did well, I just said why I debate US politics (or British or Swedish politics for that matter, or the Middle East for that matter), it's quite natural if you're politically interested and/or love history.

States rights is the United States. That's the definition of the United States. But there's still a federal law enforcement agency, there are still some laws that need to apply across the nation and there are some things the whole nation need. But I digress.

When I was in Norway many a Viking told me tales of their beloved King Olav. How he was known to ride on the train(?). nomix I also want to make clear since our debate seems pretty heated that I truly enjoyed my stay in your country you folks are very friendly. Norway is the first place I saw the Northern Lights in a cow pasture lol.
During the fuel crisis in 73, he was photographed taking the tram to a sports event. He even offered to pay for the fare, but the conducter didn't let him. I'm happy you liked Norway, I'm quite fond of it myself. Sadly never been stateside, but I've got two genious American professors, so I'm in touch with Americans on a daily basis, you might say.

I wouldn't really say this is heated. When I debate torture with jetsetter, that's heated. Or when I debate death penalty with Steve Levin. This isn't close to being heated. :p

As someone on "Romneycare" with major health issues, I will tell you it does in fact suck. It is awesome if you are healthy or have "normal" health issues but if you have something weird and want to see a doctor actually qualified to treat or diagnose you, you are pretty much fucked. There are bunch of hidden loopholes you won't find out about until you try and see a certain doctor and you often have to have a huge battle if you want something covered. Tests are often barely covered at all and the big one I had in January ended up costing me like 800$. There is also the big problem of them legally requiring you to have health care, but since mine ran out I don't have any now because the paperwork is so slow. I will be charged a shitload of tax money because of that later. Because of the weird contract rules they have a lot of the doctors are flat out refusing to see me right now even if I offer to pay in cash.

So yes, still a totally broken system even if it is better than the rest of the country.
That's better than the rest of the US? What the f*ck are you waiting for? That's just a faulty system, end to end.

Well, it's billed as universal health care and that is what it is. A "one size fits all" hat that fits the average person but the people with odd shaped heads will have to special order one. :dunno:
That just isn't universal health care. Universal health care is very simple, I'll explain it: You get sick? You get treated. End. So no, from what you're saying, it's by no means universal.
 
nomix you should visit the United States. I would love to hear your reaction to the place once you have visited it. I think that a lot of Europeans have a different view of this country in their mind's eye then what it is actually like. Although you seem to be less wrong then someone like Macguffin who thinks that every American walks around with a beer and a shotgun yelling at each other. (Kidding)
 
That is what they are calling universal health care, the Romney bill is not not much different than the Obama one. If you look at some other posts I have made on the subject I have slammed the "heath care reform" bills because of that. It's barely an improvement at all and I don't think they should fucking pass it until it actually qualifies as a reform instead of a crappy bandaid. It is the health care equivalent to hybrid cars and their owners thinking buying them saves the world. No, buying into "good enough" just sends the message to the people in charge that you are satisfied and they don't have to look for a real solution.
 
nomix you should visit the United States. I would love to hear your reaction to the place once you have visited it. I think that a lot of Europeans have a different view of this country in their mind's eye then what it is actually like. Although you seem to be less wrong then someone like Macguffin who thinks that every American walks around with a beer and a shotgun yelling at each other. (Kidding)

Actually I have been to the USA -- twice. Even worse: I have been to Texas :lol: And not on a tourist trip but I have actually worked there in a company for some time as part of an air force training at the time.

And I'm still alive :) Also I didn't get arrested or bullied by the local sheriff. I met some really great people there (and some awkward ones) and I have some friends in the USA. But I scared a lady in a Cadillac on the interstate 30, because I leaned out of the window to take a picture of the Dallas Skyline at night, which she obviously interpreted as an attempted attack and sped off like crazy.

Haven't met any drunkards with a shotgun, because drinking in public was prohibited in the county we stayed in. Mainly because some members of the county's council owned big liquor shops in the next county ;) And because we were told to stay away from certain areas of town, if we value our lives.

Don't be mistaken: I have my personal experiences. When I do what you accuse me of, it is directed at a very special kind of Americans surely everybody recognizes on this forum.

I don't do generaliziations lightheartedly. But I have no fear of showing my views and perceptions and I definitely have no problem with sarcasm and irony. And when it comes to it, I also have no problem with being corrected.

But forgive me when I say it so blatantly: From my personal experience, the average European knows way more about America, than the average American knows about Europe ;)
 
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That is what they are calling universal health care, the Romney bill is not not much different than the Obama one. If you look at some other posts I have made on the subject I have slammed the "heath care reform" bills because of that. It's barely an improvement at all and I don't think they should fucking pass it until it actually qualifies as a reform instead of a crappy bandaid. It is the health care equivalent to hybrid cars and their owners thinking buying them saves the world. No, buying into "good enough" just sends the message to the people in charge that you are satisfied and they don't have to look for a real solution.

I can't think of many, if any supporters that think the health care reform was enough. I think supporters view it as a start. Detractors view it as too much federal government power and a way to discredit a democratic president.

EDIT: Macguffin, I really was joking. Also, I think you are very right that the average European knows more about America then the opposite. I wish I have been to more parts of the European continent then I have been. It is a wonderful place. I was just trying to state that in America, people are, in general, very kind and generous. Not at all like the current political climate.
At the moment I see two political parties using the anguish being caused by a poor economy to push their agendas and maintain power. I also feel the Republican Party is doing this more then the Democratic party. I dislike fear driven rhetoric.
 
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I have been told I was a nazi multiple times for saying the health care bill was useless. :|
People are just that dumb and will buy stupid things at face value like that.
 
EDIT: Macguffin, I really was joking.

I know ;)

But I learned one thing in this forum: Even it if you do the most obvious of jokes, somebody is going to be pissed about it, because he didn't get it. And strangely those people always seem to come from America (and Belgium, actually).
 
I'd just like to point out, in a factual manner, that this is the fundamental difference between US liberals and conservatives. MacGuffin just said that he lives in a country where he doesn't have to worry about health care, and alaskarat said that's a bad thing because he goes to work and the government takes half of his money.

In an opinionated manner, alaskarat, you are what's wrong with this country right now. If it weren't for people like you, we could have some decent reforms of horrifically broken systems in this country, and could even have some money to pay for them if we could reform the horrifically broken tax system. For you to seriously insinuate that you would rather pay comparatively (to the world) low income taxes than have to ever worry about a medical bill again is not only short-sighted on your part, but incredibly ideological and somewhat selfish. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul.

Furthermore, expanding from the health care debate to a larger discussion about tax rates, have you seen countries that have what we would consider high tax rates? They're fucking fantastic. I would love to pay almost 50% in taxes if this country would be more like, say, Sweden and less like... well, like us now.

So who do you assume is going to make these so called decent reforms the same Federal Government that broke the system?
You think it is wise to take the money I earn a mere $110,000 which thankfully I have enough tax shelters to protect me for them taking 25% and cut it in half to $50,000 a year? So in your dream world taking people from middle class and moving them to near poverty so that people not working can have whatever a liberals heart desires is a good thing?
I have an idea for you we go with a flat tax on everybody of say 20% this will generate a massive amount of revenue for the government to spend. How so you may ask, right now less than 50% of us pay taxes and those that are rich know how to hide their money with the crazy tax laws we have. This would also apply to industry so that liberal backed buddies like GE who made 61 billion in profits last year yet paid no taxes at all in the US would have to pay into the system too.
But no in the liberals head it is better to take the money from those who worked hard to get where they are. Have times always been good for the rat? No I have worked jobs that paid as little a $10.00 for overnight maintenance on passenger airplanes. I took the job so that I would not be a parasite on society. Was I so high and mighty that I did not get federal assistance, no. We were enrolled in WIC for our new born. So when I got another job that paid a bit more we decided that we could provide for ourselves again. When we went to WIC to get off of it they actually tried to convince us to stay in the program since we stilled qualified! If this is the norm which I believe it is then yes we need some decent reforms as to who gets these benefits. The same abuse that is happening in the welfare system today will continue on through any Government Health Care Plan. Already companies are getting ready to drop employee Health Insurance because the fines are cheaper than the actual cost of providing health insurance. That is what happens when ?we will not know what is in the bill until after it passes?.
 
GE and all the other companies give monies to both sides. It is the only way to make sure that they will be listened to.
 
... Already companies are getting ready to drop employee Health Insurance because the fines are cheaper than the actual cost of providing health insurance. That is what happens when ?we will not know what is in the bill until after it passes?.
Here not deducting the correct amount of National Insurance Contribution (NIC) is a criminal offence and it is gaol time plus fine if you do it - that keeps people honest. Really you have no problems that have not been solved by some country somewhere before.
 
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