Vauxhall-Opel / Peugeot-Citroen merger?

Spectre

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French cars simply can't be worse than anything contemporary made by Detroit. Except trucks. You seem to know how to make those.
Altough I'd still buy a Hilux.
No, they were worse, far worse. Detroit iron usually didn't go on fire for no apparent reason, whereas their contemporary Frenchist counterparts did. Remember, I owned a 504 here in the US; it was abysmally bad.

You might want to check with your fellow Scandihoovian, luokyio - he's got an abused example of one of the worst cars Detroit ever churned out over there, and even he has to admit it's better than he thought it would be.
 
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Perc

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I wouldn't call the 504 (or 505, 405, 406, 508) bad. I'm not sure why nothing European ever works right when it's shipped over there, because it usually works fine on our shores.

But why are we even discussing a car that came out in 1968 when the topic is about bringing current PSA models over to the US?
 

Spectre

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I wouldn't call the 504 (or 505, 405, 406, 508) bad. I'm not sure why nothing European ever works right when it's shipped over there, because it usually works fine on our shores.

But why are we even discussing a car that came out in 1968 when the topic is about bringing current PSA models over to the US?
We had an unbroken succession of terrible French cars while they were here, and from what I've seen on trips to Europe and read from European media, they haven't really improved. For example, this list of least reliable cars was completely unsurprising.

I've said it multiple times - the US driving environment is far more demanding than Europe's (note how Fiat had to reinforce the 500's suspension prior to going on sale in the US because their test cars had their suspensions shatter, for example) and European marques often don't do proper US summer testing so what you end up with is a lot of thermal failures. An example of the latter is Der Stig's E46 interior - in Europe the interiors hold up just fine but in his, the cloth is debonding from the A-pillar covers because the foam has disintegrated. And Euro AC systems often aren't really up to dealing with Arizona or Texas heat sometimes.
 
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Arctor

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PSA cars aren't really suitable for the american market these days. Small cars are obviously out, and the bigger ones are pretty underpowered and/or diesel focused.

I would love a C5 with the V6 turbodiesel though.
This isn't necessarily true. At least locally we've seen a huge increase in the sale of smaller cars.
 

headcrash

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Got a linky for the fiat suspension thing? I'm curious.
Yeah, I call bullshit on this one. All I could find was that the suspension was 'optimized for the NA market' from the beginning, which probably means a loftier ride, and softer for the worse roads and heavier occupants.

- - - Updated - - -

We had an unbroken succession of terrible French cars while they were here, and from what I've seen on trips to Europe and read from European media, they haven't really improved. For example, this list of least reliable cars was completely unsurprising.
Did you read the full page? Lower down is a list of cars which spend the least time in the garages. A french one is in the top five. Below that is a list of the five most unreliable manufacturers. No french one, no german one.
 

Spectre

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Got a linky for the fiat suspension thing? I'm curious.
Yeah, I call bullshit on this one. All I could find was that the suspension was 'optimized for the NA market' from the beginning, which probably means a loftier ride, and softer for the worse roads and heavier occupants.
It was in many US magazines and news sources when it was in development - they had to modify the car's suspension for the US market and they decided to backport the modifications back to Europe afterwards.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2012-fiat-500-drive-fiat-500-review

The transmission is one of several substantial changes Fiat made to the 500 to bring it to the U.S. Our car has a redesigned rear suspension with more roll stiffness, as well as revised front-suspension geometry said to keep the car flatter. We get additional subframe bracing and revised shocks all around, and our car should be substantially quieter inside.
That doesn't sounds like 'making it softer' or 'loftier' - that sounds like 'making it stiffer and stronger'.

http://www.mendaily.com/fiat-500-u-s-yes-or-no-video/

So what is the U.S. version like? First of all, there is an automatic transmission option. It drops the fuel efficiency, but it is still OK ? 27 mpg city/34 mpg highway ? and it is not very sporty, but Fiat still expects most American buyers to choose the automatic. The other changes include a new and stiffer rear suspension, revised front suspension and shocks, but the most notable change is in sound insulation. The U.S. version is a lot quieter.
And a Fiat spokesman saying that the US modifications will be brought back to Europe, starting at 5:43 when he begins discussing the rear suspension. Torsional stiffness is increased 300 percent over the European model as well, per the spokesman.

http://fiatenthusiastsclub.com/videos/2012-fiat-500-european-vs-u-s-version/

Game, set, match.

And for a victory lap, see what the Fiat forumists have to say:

I know there was a blog post about this a while back but I thought I'd just reiterate what I know still as to how the Fiat will evolve come next summer when a refresh/update is due for the 500, both here and in Europe.

When Fiat was working on the changes to meet US standards, they discovered that many of those changes made the car BETTER, so much so that they decided to incorporate them for Europe as well.
The rest of that (short) thread is worth reading.

Anyway, my assertion is common knowledge and up there's the evidence to support it.


- - - Updated - - -



Did you read the full page? Lower down is a list of cars which spend the least time in the garages. A french one is in the top five. Below that is a list of the five most unreliable manufacturers. No french one, no german one.
Yup. But GM has been known to top our 'most reliable' lists as well, while populating the 'shit reliability' lists with models year after year. The point is that having two French cars in the 'least reliable while under warranty' list is not surprising to any US French car owner.
 
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headcrash

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...
Game, set, match.
...
Hehe, you're adorable.

...
It was in many US magazines and news sources when it was in development - they had to modify the car's suspension for the US market and they decided to backport the modifications back to Europe afterwards.
...
Please cite one of the sources that say that they shattered. I never doubted that they revised the suspension, and I just guessed what they did, so your other points are just stating that I guessed wrong.
 

Spectre

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Please cite one of the sources that say that they shattered. I never doubted that they revised the suspension, and I just guessed what they did, so your other points are just stating that I guessed wrong.
That point comes from a CNN video interview with a Chrysler exec at the Detroit Auto Shot a few years ago discussing the changes to the 500 for the NAFTA market. He stated that the initial test cars shipped over from Italy had the rear suspensions experience 'catastrophic failures' involving 'parts shattering' (his words, not mine) necessitating the crash project to reinforce the rear suspension.

Since there's no way to dig that up short of going to CNN HQ in Atlanta, I'll point this out as supporting evidence - there's no shortage of European posters on the Fiat 500 forums complaining of suspension problems and failures. Example: http://www.fiatforum.com/500/175556-fiat-500-suspension-problems.html

me and my partner bought a 500 lounge td in cha cha blue two month ago, love the car to bits, had it two month and its been back 3 times soon to be 4
*first- new anti roll bar
*second- drop links
*third- front suspension bearings
*fourth- going back on friday for... drop links again
I'm starting to see a pattern emerging here.... there has to be something wrong with all these people reporting knocking from the suspension!
If they're having those problems in Europe, what do you think the unmodified car was going to do when brought to the moonscape known as US roads?

In case you're wondering why I'm on 500 forums when I don't want one or own one, one of my more important clients has a woman who owns one. Unfortunately, as I'm the only car guy in the building when I'm there, I will be constantly pestered when something goes wrong with it until I come up with some idea of what went wrong. Since I don't want the pestering or the attention (and I really can't tell her no if I want to keep my contract), occasional passes through Fiat forums are called for. I will be so happy when that POS finally does something terminal and goes away.
 
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miki

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I'm not sure why nothing European ever works right when it's shipped over there, because it usually works fine on our shores.
-Poor engineered emission controls (especially in the 70s-80s)
-People not used to oil changes
-"I have a yurop-eean car !!1!" guys who revs like an idiot after a cold start, blow the engine, "european car are unreliable pos, i know, man"
-No MOT on most states
 
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Spectre

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-Poor engineered emission controls (especially in the 70s-80s)
-People not used to oil changes
-"I have a yurop-eean car !!1!" guys who revs like an idiot after a cold start, blow the engine, "european car are unreliable pos, i know, man"
-No MOT on most states
- Does not explain modern cars and world-standard emissions equipment.
- Does not explain cars failing when in prepaid/included maintenance plans where the car tells them to bring them in, also the US tends to change oil more frequently than actually required.
- Not proven by dataloggers included in more recent cars.
- Does not explain failures in states with MOT-like inspections.

Google "BMW VANOS failure" if you want one example of 'things that go wrong in US market cars *without* US owner abuse that supposedly never go wrong in Europe'. Or the E46 M3 engine grenading problem that did not show up in Europe but did in the US; BMW accused owners of hotrodding the cars when cold or overrevving them on downshift (much like you just did) until a car with an SMG had the engine grenade. The ECU datalog showed the engine overrevving - which is not possible for the owner to cause to happen on an SMG car.
 

headcrash

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That point comes from a CNN video interview with a Chrysler exec at the Detroit Auto Shot a few years ago discussing the changes to the 500 for the NAFTA market. He stated that the initial test cars shipped over from Italy had the rear suspensions experience 'catastrophic failures' involving 'parts shattering' (his words, not mine) necessitating the crash project to reinforce the rear suspension.
All over the news then, huh?

Since there's no way to dig that up short of going to CNN HQ in Atlanta, I'll point this out as supporting evidence - there's no shortage of European posters on the Fiat 500 forums complaining of suspension problems and failures. Example: http://www.fiatforum.com/500/175556-fiat-500-suspension-problems.html
Yes, there is a shortage. The thread covers three years and is barely three pages long, and not all posters are having problems.

I am interested in this because i lived in Italy and know how cars, especially the small ones, are abused. In rural areas, asphalt is often the exception and potholes, cracks, etc. standard. When there was a "shattering" problem on the Panda platform, all of Italy would have been in an uproar.

So yeah, either the exec exaggerated or you did (not too far fetched knowing your bias against continental European cars), and I call this one debunked.
 

Spectre

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All over the news then, huh?
Someone else had to point that interview out to me the first time and it was on CNN's website for a while. However, being CNN, it's been dumped as 'old news' - along with much of anything else that's more than 18 months old.

Yes, there is a shortage. The thread covers three years and is barely three pages long, and not all posters are having problems.

I am interested in this because i lived in Italy and know how cars, especially the small ones, are abused. In rural areas, asphalt is often the exception and potholes, cracks, etc. standard. When there was a "shattering" problem on the Panda platform, all of Italy would have been in an uproar.

So yeah, either the exec exaggerated or you did (not too far fetched knowing your bias against continental European cars), and I call this one debunked.
Fine. Here's some more threads, since you won't take just one:

http://www.fiatforum.com/500/321551-new-her-potential-suspension-problems.html

mine is a 58 model and its already had 2 front suspension arms at 20k!!
http://www.fiatforum.com/500/274791-fiat-500-warranty.html

The main issues you're going to run into with the 500 is suspension problems. Things like droplinks, balljoints this requires the replacement of the wishbone!
http://www.fiatforum.com/500/298728-things-go-bump-back.html

The bump stop had completely fallen off and was rattling around inside the spring.
Suspension is definately Fiat's weak spot.
http://www.fiatforum.com/500/190117-fiat-500-slated-auto-express-3.html

{Had following replaced within first year} New steering rack, new suspension mounts, new drop links, new anti roll bar kit....
Plenty more just at this one forum alone. Here's a Google search for there, since I don't feel like listing out every single thread on that site that's germane: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CEEQrQIwAQ&url=/search?q=fiat+500+suspension+problems+forum+site:www.fiatforum.com&client=firefox-a&hs=CGP&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&biw=1036&bih=852&ei=QdT_UfyWCJHK9gT2_4HYCg&usg=AFQjCNErWRZVtOfO8aw0zuLa4W-UhjvQjQ&sig2=G431TZ8AKvHAjXHSfZJwcw&bvm=bv.50165853,d.eWU&cad=rja

You can google more if you want, because there's plenty more there.

As for my bias against Continental cars, yes, it's so bad that I recommend Mercedes to friends and family at present (one family member just bought a new CL550 4Motion on my recommendation). Mercedes is not continental at all, right? :rolleyes:

I recommend cars based on personal experience and data collected from multiple sources; I've personally owned a 911, a BMW 7, a 504, an Alfa and others including a W123, and associate with people who own all sorts of Euro marques in the US. When I think something is bad from experience and have seen no signs of improvement since that experience, I'll say so. Likewise, if something used to be bad but is now showing signs that it's now good, I'll say that as well. If it happens that a lot of the crap I see is coming from Europe right now and in the recent past, that's the breaks.

For that matter, there isn't a single car in Jaguar's current lineup that I'd recommend so aside from Mercedes and Aston I can't think of any other single manufacturer in Europe, continental or otherwise, who I'd recommend many products of to others. Of the US, there's Ford (but not even all of their lineup); of the Asians, some Nissans/Infinitis, couple of Hondas, some of the Hyundai/Kias, but that's about it.
 
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