Volkswagen is in trouble with just about everybody on the f'ing planet

prizrak

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That's unbelievably cynical... If you were trying to make a point, you failed.

In essence you say "fuck the common people who might lose there jobs, I wanna see something big going ballistic".

Sorry but with all understanding for the need of punishment, that cannot be the answer.

You know why no one takes hostages in Israel? Because they will shoot through them to get to the bad guys. This is same situation if one large company is shown that the "hostages" (in this case line employees) are not going to save them from getting "shot" they will start paying a heck of a lot more attention to what they do. Also this is Germany not like those people would be out on the streets.
 

SirEdward

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Mac,
I have to say I understand your "too big too fail" issue, but I disagree. The problem with companies failing and taking down entire economies with them is all too real, and has been badly dealt before during the bank crisis. But if indeed there are companies "too big too fail", than that's the failure of the entire economical system and of our social hyerarchy, which is based on "the more wealth you produce, the more you'll get rewarded, the more you will waste wealth, the more you will lose".

The "too big too fail" means exactly "if you lose wealth, you'll get the reward anyway", which means that your reward is not justified anymore. This is the problem with our economical system even now, people earning way more than they produce. The "too big to fail" is just a naked king walking around. If someone has to fail, they have to fail. If we build a system where there are companies "too big to fail", then we either change the basic foundations of our system or we regulate things so that no companies "too big to fail" can exist. If we won't solve this issue, time and history will sort it out for us, probably in one of the most painful ways possible.

VW here made a big, bad move, and they have to pay all that is necessary, and they should by starting from the big managers, for example by not giving them millions of euros in severance benefits... At the same time, I think the possibility of other car makers having similar issues is ridiculously high, because, if anything, VW seems to have wildly reduced the pollutant emissions during the tests in comparison to the real world, but none of the other makers seems to have noticed, and we know other car makers buy from competitors and then Reverse Engineer the cars to the smallest screw...

I can say I wouldn't want to see VW fail alone, if anyone else committed the same fraud, but they have to pay it all. And I surely don't hate VW... (yes, it's a 2.0 diesel Golf...). I don't think VW will bankrupt. I hope they won't, anyway.

I can see a lot of problems for diesel cars in the near future, and a lot more for VW. Also, with this move, VW already torpedoed the resell value of my own car, and probably set a series of events in motion that will lead to possible further limitations in circulation for my car, which might lead me to changing it despite my desires and calculations (effectively losing money). I'm just waiting to see if my car is also affected (or not, having a different injection system from the cars involved) to know if my car is out of regulations too, so I can sue VW for making me effectively lose money. I would honestly be very irritated if VW was deemed "too big to fail" and given a reduction in losses while I'll have to face the entire loss of value of my asset because someone else cheated. Nobody is protecting me, it would be quite unfair to protect VW.
 
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LeVeL

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The concept of "too big to fail" is asinine. It's essentially corporate welfare that endorses massive-scale abuse.

That said, fuck the EPA. Rumor has it that if vehicles are recalled and "fixed" they will get worse mileage, so you'd have to be mental to give a rat's ass about this ordeal if you own one of these VAGs. Of course now the EPA is throwing a hissy fit because a major manufacturer outsmarted their stupidly tight regulations and now that they discovered it they can pretend to be doing something useful and important. The whole organization should be scrapped, in my not so humble opinion.
 
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MWF

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Since I am not a US native and therefore somewhat ignorant in these things but am I right in saying the regulations with which VW failed to comply don't apply to pick-ups since they are "work vehicles"? I've seen enough trucks over there belching out tons of black crap that can't be good for anyone and as the F150 is the best seller in the US.

Don't get me wrong, I'm neither defending VW or slating 'Muricuh! but it does seem rather cock-eyed if that truly is the case.

Also in a case of truly wonderful timing BBC4's Timeshift last night was this.... Made for a good watch.
 
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Porsche CEO Matthias M?ller will become Winterkorn's replacement.

That's not without irony because he was already handled as his follower earlier this year, when Piech had to go. So if M?ller had become CEO of VW then, it would have probably him who had to resign now.
 

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Quite surprised by that since there is a chance he has "blood" on his hands. Other heads are expected to roll in the coming days.
 

prizrak

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Since I am not a US native and therefore somewhat ignorant in these things but am I right in saying the regulations with which VW failed to comply don't apply to pick-ups since they are "work vehicles"? I've seen enough trucks over there belching out tons of black crap that can't be good for anyone and as the F150 is the best seller in the US.

Don't get me wrong, I'm neither defending VW or slating 'Muricuh! but it does seem rather cock-eyed if that truly is the case.

Also in a case of truly wonderful timing BBC4's Timeshift last night was this.... Made for a good watch.

There is a different regulation for trucks that is true, however in this case those F150s are actually better than VWs. You can't get around having to have a different regulation for a work vehicle over a passenger vehicle. Also no one is trying to sell diesel trucks as "clean hybrid alternatives" around here, they are sold to people who generally do use the vehicle the way it was designed (haul a ton of shit).
 

BerserkerCatSplat

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Since I am not a US native and therefore somewhat ignorant in these things but am I right in saying the regulations with which VW failed to comply don't apply to pick-ups since they are "work vehicles"? I've seen enough trucks over there belching out tons of black crap that can't be good for anyone and as the F150 is the best seller in the US.

Don't get me wrong, I'm neither defending VW or slating 'Muricuh! but it does seem rather cock-eyed if that truly is the case.


Well, for one, you can't get an F150 with a diesel. That's restricted to F250 and above. If the F150 had a diesel, it would be emmissions-rated under the same regulations as passenger cars, as light trucks (GVWR <8500lbs) are lumped in with cars under EPA Tier 2 emissions.

In general, yes, the bigger trucks with higher GVWR are rated differently for emissions, but probably not as much as you'd think. For passenger cars they're generally looking for 0.07g/mi of NOx, there's some fleet-averaging going on but that's generally the target number. Heavy trucks, like the F250 with the 6.7L diesel, are regulated to 0.2 g/mi - while a bit higher than the passenger car numbers, they're still quite restrictive.

And now for some counter-intuitive stuff: trucks you see rolling coal (belching black smoke) are actually likely emitting less NOx than one that isn't. Aftermarket tuned diesels are run rich for more power (or just for more smoke), and a richer diesel burn makes for fewer oxides than a lean burn but gets worse MPG.
 
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JimCorrigan

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More heads about to roll

Car and Driver said:
Diesel Cheating Scandal Claiming Top Engineers at VW

At the time of Volkswagen Group CEO Martin Winterkorn?s departure, the company said, ?The Executive Committee is expecting further personnel consequences in the next days.? Now we?re getting the first word of who those executives might be.

The German magazine Der Spiegel reports three more heavyweights will be forced out: VW R&D chief Heinz-Jakob Neusser, Audi R&D chief Ulrich Hackenberg, and Porsche R&D chief Wolfgang Hatz. They are supposed to take responsibility for the scandal, which has blown up beyond the wildest imaginations on an international scale. Political outrage has built up and been fanned by reports that the software designed to circumvent U.S. emissions testing was also present on cars sold outside of the U.S. (where, incidentally, it has no effect whatsoever).

The firings have not yet been officially confirmed.

What unites Neusser, Hackenberg, and Hatz is not just their vast knowledge and expertise, and their ability to deep-dive into every technical detail of a car, it is also their love of cars. You could find any of them at races, WRC rallies, or historical races. Cars were their end, not the means. All three of them had been hand-picked by Ferdinand Pi?ch and played a major role in making VW the world?s number-one automaker.

Headhunters will scramble to find adequate replacements for the VW Group?s three top engineers, and they might not be able to succeed in this ambitious endeavor. On the other hand, we wouldn?t be surprised if Neusser, Hackenberg, and/or Hatz were to end up at another carmaker or a tier-one supplier.

Meanwhile, with the car guys forced out, it?s entirely possible that the bean counters will take over at VW. Sweeping changes indeed.

Talk about your scorched earth policy.
 

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I don't see the need for VW to be split up, how is this a problem that a smaller company would be immune too? I also don't see this being a thing which will kill them, there is no way VW will be paying the full cost of the fine. This is now an issue of the German government, geopolitics will kick in. Deals will be made among the governments, and VW will take a big nonfatal hit. VW may need to sell off their prestigious brands however (Bentley, Lamborghini, and Porsche come to mind).

GM has gone through this, they made deals, paid the fine, and life went on. This would happen even with a smaller automaker.

- - - Updated - - -

There is a different regulation for trucks that is true, however in this case those F150s are actually better than VWs. You can't get around having to have a different regulation for a work vehicle over a passenger vehicle. Also no one is trying to sell diesel trucks as "clean hybrid alternatives" around here, they are sold to people who generally do use the vehicle the way it was designed (haul a ton of shit).

There is also significantly less F350s and the like running around.
 
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equiraptor

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Since I am not a US native and therefore somewhat ignorant in these things but am I right in saying the regulations with which VW failed to comply don't apply to pick-ups since they are "work vehicles"? I've seen enough trucks over there belching out tons of black crap that can't be good for anyone and as the F150 is the best seller in the US.
One of the things about the US is the emissions requirements "as sold" or as produced by the manufacturer are different from the emissions requirements for the now personally owned vehicle. The requirements on the maker are, IIRC, federal (on at least some level). Different states also have different requirements, and even different areas of different states can have different requirements. Once the vehicle is sold, it may have to pass an annual emissions test... or it may not, depending on where it's registered. The smoking vehicles generally start smoking sometime after they're sold, either through modification or poor maintenance and repairs. Emissions requirements for these vehicles vary by state and even by county. People can also generally get away with allowing the vehicle to belt the smoke most of the time, clean it up to pass the annual test, and then smoke again. If they're caught, they may face penalties, but these are rarely enforced.

It's most likely the vehicles you see smoking didn't do that when they were originally sold.
 
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JimCorrigan

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Not a chance VW sells off Porsche (I wish!). Guess who owns the majority stake in VW?
 

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The Porsche family. Don't confuse that with Porsche GmbH which owns less than 3% as far as my research suggests.

No doubt many Germans narf will correct me if I am wrong.
 

argatoga

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Not a chance VW sells off Porsche (I wish!). Guess who owns the majority stake in VW?

Regardless if the Porsche family owns most of VW, if VW needs the cash they can still sell the company. If they are hit too hard they will need to do what Ford did and sell off brands. Land Rover was a very profitable company, but Ford needed the money to hold up its far more profitable bread and butter.
 

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The Porsche family. Don't confuse that with Porsche GmbH which owns less than 3% as far as my research suggests.

No doubt many Germans narf will correct me if I am wrong.

If i'm not mistaken it's divided between 2 families, Pi?ch and Porsche.

Or to be more specific. VAG is owned by Porsche Holding SE for 30-ish%, which is owned by (?) for 100%
 
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Spectre

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More heads about to roll

Talk about your scorched earth policy.

No, this isn't scorched earth, this is "lighten the troika" or "throwing <someone> to the wolves." Both refer to the Russian archetypical folktale of a sled, drawn by three horses (hence, a "troika"), being pursued by an enormous wolf pack in the dead of winter in rural Russia. As there is no help at hand and the contents of the troika appear to be what the wolves are intent on eating, the troika occupants eject one of their number in the hopes that either the wolves will stop to fight over and then eat the hapless ejectee (thereby allowing the rest to escape) or that the reduced weight will allow the sled to travel faster (and thereby allowing the rest to escape.)

All this is is VW throwing people overboard in the hopes that the pack baying for their blood will be sated. I don't think it will work - if for no other reason than that VW decided to do this in the Land Of Lawsuits, California. Big, big, big mistake.

- - - Updated - - -

The concept of "too big to fail" is asinine. It's essentially corporate welfare that endorses massive-scale abuse.

That said, fuck the EPA. Rumor has it that if vehicles are recalled and "fixed" they will get worse mileage, so you'd have to be mental to give a rat's ass about this ordeal if you own one of these VAGs. Of course now the EPA is throwing a hissy fit because a major manufacturer outsmarted their stupidly tight regulations and now that they discovered it they can pretend to be doing something useful and important. The whole organization should be scrapped, in my not so humble opinion.

Level, go back and read the thread. This isn't a 'silly' pollutant like CO2 or H2O VW got caught venting. You should know me well enough to know that I would have laughed at the EPA and supported VW over this if this had been the case. They got caught spewing nitrogen oxides into the air, which *are* proven pollutants and whose action can be shown in a lab in less than a day.

- - - Updated - - -

...and the inevitable happened, the next carmakers are getting caught up - Peter Mock from the ICCT says that they...
(src, original article is paywalled)

Per our IM conversations, I'm not surprised at all. Given the useless and ridiculous certification processes and toothless agencies in Europe (deliberately defanged and looking the other way to protect 'national pride' auto manufacturers), I'm sure they're going to find many, many more auto companies cheating in the EU market.

I'm also pretty sure they're not going to find any more significant violations in the US. Our EPA has teeth, great big nasty teeth within their jurisdiction, and the ICCT's US contractor did *not* find any other US market diesel cars having similar issues. They already cleared BMW's USDM diesels, for example.

The fact that US law allows the EPA to inflict enormous fines and jail time for environmental crimes while NHTSA/DOT's considerably more limited in what they can do about direct automotive safety violations does not escape me, either.
 
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Jimi Hendrix

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That's unbelievably cynical... If you were trying to make a point, you failed.

In essence you say "fuck the common people who might lose there jobs, I wanna see something big going ballistic".

Sorry but with all understanding for the need of punishment, that cannot be the answer.

Would have you said the same if VW was a company from the south of Europe?

That's very typical of Germans, they are extremely hard with other people's faults but they never, absolutely never, accept to take any responsability for their own faults.
 

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There is a different regulation for trucks that is true, however in this case those F150s are actually better than VWs. You can't get around having to have a different regulation for a work vehicle over a passenger vehicle. Also no one is trying to sell diesel trucks as "clean hybrid alternatives" around here, they are sold to people who generally do use the vehicle the way it was designed (haul a ton of shit).

Fiat's actually stuck a diesel in their Dodge Ram 1500 half-ton. It's regulated like a passenger car and has to meet the same specs that VW's TDIs were supposed to (and failed to do). It *is* being sold as a 'clean alternative.'

However, nobody seems to be interested and sales of the Ram EcoDiesel are lagging while the Ram 2500 and 3500 with a Cummins diesel are still doing well.

You still can't get a diesel in the F-150 and Ford has continued to rule it out despite some consumers asking for it. At one point, Ford was going to put a 'clean diesel' into the F-150, but then they saw the 2008 restrictions, said "oh, HELL no" and gave the engine to Land Rover, then concentrated on the TwinForce (now EcoBoost) line of gasoline engines. The Land Rover 4.4L diesel is the engine that was originally going to go into the F-150.

Ford appears to have made the right decision.

- - - Updated - - -

That's unbelievably cynical... If you were trying to make a point, you failed.

In essence you say "fuck the common people who might lose there jobs, I wanna see something big going ballistic".

Sorry but with all understanding for the need of punishment, that cannot be the answer.

Others have already addressed other aspects of this, but I'll say this: So, because we want to see corporate criminals (which is what VW is at this point, since they made every single one of their US dealership personnel accomplices to fraud and therefore subject to jail time among other reasons) brought to justice and administered appropriate punishment, we're nihilists????


Basically, what you're saying is, "As long as common Germans don't lose their jobs, I don't care if thousands and thousands of common people in other countries go to jail as the result of VW's policies."

Last I checked, 'losing your job' is considerably less of a problem than 'got sent to jail for a felony.'
 
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