Volkswagen is in trouble with just about everybody on the f'ing planet

JimCorrigan

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2011
Messages
4,119
Location
Pacific Rim
Car(s)
HMCS Velvet Glove; The Last Samurai
Rolling coal = particulate emissions = bad for asthmatics, carcinogenic...
1) The behaviour of these inbred yokels (however distasteful) does not excuse the intentional deceit of a large multinational.
2) NOx compounds are so far the only proven isolate of auto emissions to cause respiratory distress (and even there, the link with asthma itself is weak, but stronger with "respiratory distress" overall). Hydrocarbons from auto emissions have not (thus far) been shown to be a direct causal link to respiratory conditions or cancer. Hydrocarbons from industrial pollution, and from occupational exposure (i.e., firefighters and smoke inhalation) do show again a weak correlation, but there are many other uncontrolled variables to state this outright.
 

MacGuffin

Forum Addict
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
Messages
8,295
Location
Wilhelmshaven, Germany
Car(s)
'17 Ford Mustang GT Fastback
Re: petrol car pollutants, it's what MWF said. Completely. One is proven. The other is not. It is that simple.

Oh, and dammit, Mac! I'm not American, and not living in the US! :hammer:

Regardless, I'm a little disturbed at your making a rather brash assumption about America. Again.

Sorry for mistaking you for an American :D

And about the assumptions: I only make assumptions on what America shows to the world :dunno: You cannot deny that America is quite outgoing about its way of life and how things are done there. It's their biggest export, so to speak.

I am not American and will always have problems understanding America, to be honest. And I admit it wouldn't be my first choice of places where I'd like to live. Visiting, yes. Admiring it, too. But the inner contradictions are too big for me to be comfortable with and don't seem to compute in my brain, even though I know that daily life is about the same as here.

Yeah, Mac, it's called the difference between curbing the exhaust gases that we know do us harm each and every day and reducing the ones that may be behind as yet not totally proven anthropogenic climate change.

Yes, I know that. That still leaves the question unanswered why diesel isn't forbidden entirely, when women fear for the health of their children and grandchildren because of diesel exhausts...
 
Last edited:

prizrak

Forum Addict
Joined
Apr 2, 2007
Messages
21,601
Location
No, sleep, till, BROOKLYN
Car(s)
11 Xterra Pro-4x, 12 'stang GT
Rolling coal = particulate emissions = bad for asthmatics, carcinogenic...

You are confusing behavior of stupid individuals with corporate malfeasance. There are people who run test pipes on their cars (no cats) and they are assholes and I dislike them immensely but it's nowhere in the same league if Honda or Nissan would do it from factory.

- - - Updated - - -

Yes, I know that. That still leaves the question unanswered why diesel isn't forbidden entirely, when women fear for the health of their children and grandchildren because of diesel exhausts...
By that logic why isn't coal forbidden, or hell damn near every single industrial process known to man? It's a simple case of practicality, diesel has practical uses in things that are needed for our (as in human) civilization to function. So when we try to balance the practical and the safe and companies cheat on literally industrial scale it's time for a flogging.
 

CD82

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 3, 2007
Messages
1,524
Location
German in Switzerland
Car(s)
Audi A3 2.0 TDI
But sadly a lot of people are stupid enough to believe that. "OMG, VW CHEATED ON EMISSIONS TESTS!?!! THEY SOLELY CAUSED GLOBAL WARMING AND ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR AIDS IN AFRICA AND RAPE ABORTED FETUSES."

If people will drive into lakes because the GPS said so, they'll believe that.

Don't give me any ideas about how to rapidly advance natural selection...

btw: had this "small" issue with EA189 engines been revealed a couple months earlier, I'd be in big trouble now. Switzerland no longer issues number plates to used foreign cars with this engine. Also sales of new cars with EA189 has been suspended. Basically any VW and Audi with a diesel engine and no swiss number plates won't get swiss number plates any time soon.

But then I wonder why you would drive a diesel outside of countries like Germany and France which heavily sponsor diesel fuel. Around where I live now, diesel is more expensive than petrol. On the other hand, cars are taxed indepenend of their engine type, so it's much more straight forward calculating the total annual cost of running a certain type of fuel/engine. Luckily the next german petrol station is 10 minutes away, so I get cheap diesel courtesy of a country I no longer live in, and I also pay less tax for my car because Switzerland only cares for displacement, no nonsense like "diesel cars pay 4x the tax of a petrol car". Win-Win for me, I guess... except for the fact that sooner or later I'll get a letter from Audi in which they will tell me that they'd have to "adjust" the emissions behaviour of my car. Not really looking forward to that...
 
Last edited:

peta303

Active Member
Joined
Jun 23, 2012
Messages
237
Location
CZ
Car(s)
2002 ?koda Fabia estate, 2009 Roomster
According to today's news, Mazda, Honda, Mercedes or Mitsubishi are in trouble as well. Not to mention ADAC's ?ko-Test where majority of diesels hardly met the criteria if they did at all.

This week also Jezza allegedly targets the 'Dieselgate' in his column. I haven't seen the article so far but it is considered (that) Jeremy defends Volkswagen, blaming 'eco-mentalists' to be the cause of manufacturers' cheating.
 

argatoga

Can't Start His Wank
Joined
Oct 4, 2005
Messages
18,202
Location
Seattle
Car(s)
'13 Moto Guzzi V7, '08 Pontiac Solstice GXP
I remember one woman ask him how he felt that he endangered her granddaughter because she has asthma...

Frankly that would have been the point where I would have lost it if I were in Horn's place.

How can you seriously accuse someone of toxicating your grandchild because he sold half a million diesel cars with a higher NO2 output - and at the same time completely ignore the tens of millions of trucks, boats, locomotives, construction machines, power generators and other machines that fill the air with dark clouds thick enough to block the sun?

I mean seriously, VW broke the law, they cheated, they need to be punished, okay. But for crying out loud, try keeping the right perspective and stop displaying your ignorance.

So if a company dumped toxic waste into a lake used for a city's water supply that already had been illegally used as a waste site, it is A-Okay? Older Diesels are being phased out, so there is a reduction in NOx. VW, by cheating, has prevented this phase out from being as effective. NOx is a proven killer.

A VW TDi is producing more NOx than new 2007+ semi trucks in the US:
http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/standards/heavy-duty/hdci-exhaust.htm

When US semi trucks were cheating in the US, they were hit hard. Dumping toxic waste in populated areas like VW did is not a thing that deserves a slap on the wrist, you fuck the life endangering bastards hard like the US semi truck industry.

Not to mention most semi-trucks spend their time on the highway and not in urban areas like a VW car. A VW TDi's toxic output is more likely to kill than a US semi. So yes, VW endangers the life of people with asthma.
 
Last edited:

argatoga

Can't Start His Wank
Joined
Oct 4, 2005
Messages
18,202
Location
Seattle
Car(s)
'13 Moto Guzzi V7, '08 Pontiac Solstice GXP
Consumer Reports ran what looks to be a legit test of the cheat mode.

http://jalopnik.com/this-is-how-much-fuel-economy-and-performance-drops-whe-1735705959

To quote Jalopnik's summery.

Here are the numbers: On the 2011 Jetta TDI, 0-60 times increased from 9.9 to 10.5 seconds but the 2015 Jetta?s acceleration numbers were unaltered.

But the biggest changes occurred in fuel economy. Especially on the highway where the 2015 Jetta?s MPGs dropped from 53 to 50 and the 2011 Sportwagen?s plummeted from 50 to 46 MPG.

It does not seem to be that grand a difference. Durability with this mode activated may be an issue, however.
 

rickhamilton620

has a fetish for terrible cars
Joined
Nov 28, 2009
Messages
16,839
Location
Yoe, PA
Car(s)
2012 Kia Forte EX
That test seems more legit but the cheat also allegedly measured steering wheel movement, barometric pressure, and other factors before activating.
 

MacGuffin

Forum Addict
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
Messages
8,295
Location
Wilhelmshaven, Germany
Car(s)
'17 Ford Mustang GT Fastback
A VW TDi is producing more NOx than new 2007+ semi trucks in the US:
http://www3.epa.gov/otaq/standards/heavy-duty/hdci-exhaust.htm

Yes, that is well-known. If you get rid of other toxic substances, for example with a particle filter that filters out the stuff that can give you cancer (a.k.a. black smoke), you automatically raise the amount of NOx in the exhaust. Hence the necessity for urea injection, which neutralizes the NOx. That in return will reduce your power and raise the fuel consumption. I'm not an expert but what VW did, was trying to go the cheap and easy way, even though there is a technical solution. Seems like with the bigger (and more expensive) 6-clyinder diesels there hasn't been a problem so far. Also the urea solution has disadvantages for the customer, especially in the USA, where (in VW's opinion) refilling your urea tank is considered unreasonable. Here in Germany the stuff is changed routinely at the inspections to not let customers come in contact with the stinky stuff, dunno how it is handled there.

Anyway, just because the NOx is higher than with other diesels, it doesn't mean the other diesels are cleaner. They just push out a lot more of other toxic stuff, which you can perfectly tell by the black smoke they emit. Making a diesel really clean, is a very tricky thing and also expensive. Also it needs constant maintenance by experts -- you cannot bring your car to any backyard garage, when there is a problem.

That's why the expensive and powerful 3.0 liter 6-cylinder diesels, be it from VW, Audi, BMW or Mercedes, apparently fulfill the strict limits even in road mode. I guess the car makers think people who can afford such a car, also take good care for it. The cheaper 4-cylinders are mainly driven by average people and housewifes instead, where you never know what kind of follies they do with their car.

Personally I'm glad about the V6-diesels still being out of the scandal, that because I really like those engines. They offer the same kind of fun as a petrol V8 but are a LOT more economical. For instance you can to this with them without any worries of you running out of fuel after a couple of minutes. Try that with a truck or an AMG or an M-Series BMW and you'll end up out of fuel after about 150 km tops.
 
Last edited:

Jimi Hendrix

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 14, 2004
Messages
1,109
Personally I'm glad about the V6-diesels still being out of the scandal, that because I really like those engines. They offer the same kind of fun as a petrol V8 but are a LOT more economical.

Sorry, but NO. It's not even comparable.
 

prizrak

Forum Addict
Joined
Apr 2, 2007
Messages
21,601
Location
No, sleep, till, BROOKLYN
Car(s)
11 Xterra Pro-4x, 12 'stang GT
Anyway, just because the NOx is higher than with other diesels, it doesn't mean the other diesels are cleaner. They just push out a lot more of other toxic stuff, which you can perfectly tell by the black smoke they emit.
Umm which ass did you pull that out of? I'm around diesel trucks and buses quite a bit here in the city and never see any black smoke.
 

MacGuffin

Forum Addict
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
Messages
8,295
Location
Wilhelmshaven, Germany
Car(s)
'17 Ford Mustang GT Fastback
You're right, who am I to explain that to you? ;)

 

prizrak

Forum Addict
Joined
Apr 2, 2007
Messages
21,601
Location
No, sleep, till, BROOKLYN
Car(s)
11 Xterra Pro-4x, 12 'stang GT
You're right, who am I to explain that to you? ;)


And that has what to do with the fact that I don't see black smoke coming out of diesels these days? You made the assertion that decreasing NOx emissions increases black smoke and particulates, yet I do not see diesels rolling coal in my daily driving/walking since those diesels clearly meet current emission standards your assertion holds as much water as a rusted collander.
 
Last edited:

EyeMWing

Forum Addict
Joined
Nov 17, 2008
Messages
5,284
Location
MD, Amish Country PA
Car(s)
Odds sods and turbos
Apparently VWNA is now blaming an as-yet-unidentified 'isolated group of software engineers'.

As both a software engineer and an amateur mechanic, BULLSHIT. At the barest minimum it would have to be a group of software engineers and a group of powertrain engineers - the powertrain engineers know what sort of emissions, power, economy, etc. parameters to expect out of the engine when it's running within parameters, and if the software guys put out something that doesn't do that in testing, it's going to be obvious to the powertrain guys that something isn't right. Either the motor's broke or the software is broke.
 

Cellos88GT

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jan 20, 2008
Messages
4,004
Location
Santa Cruz, CA
Car(s)
2 Fox Mustangs and a '00 VFR
Apparently VWNA is now blaming an as-yet-unidentified 'isolated group of software engineers'.

As both a software engineer and an amateur mechanic, BULLSHIT. At the barest minimum it would have to be a group of software engineers and a group of powertrain engineers - the powertrain engineers know what sort of emissions, power, economy, etc. parameters to expect out of the engine when it's running within parameters, and if the software guys put out something that doesn't do that in testing, it's going to be obvious to the powertrain guys that something isn't right. Either the motor's broke or the software is broke.

Let's not ignore the Product Validation team that signed off on it...

I'm still putting my money on the fix being encouraged by accounting and marketing.
 

MacGuffin

Forum Addict
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
Messages
8,295
Location
Wilhelmshaven, Germany
Car(s)
'17 Ford Mustang GT Fastback
From what I gathered now, the motivation to do it was only possible in the "special" management structure of VW under Martin Winterkorn. Apparently he created an atmosphere where everyone was afraid to contradict decisions from above and where objections were not welcomed. Winterkorn himself was known to carpet people personally when he didn't like something they did. He basically was a dictator, nobody dared contradicting him and everyone was afraid of giving him bad news.

So in this atmosphere it was possible that the engineers under him rather resorted to installing a fraudulent software than having to confront him with the fact that a technical sollution was possible but expensive and intricate. In fact, I really think Winterkorn didn't know about the software (or didn't want to know), all he needed was the assurance of his subordinates that the problem was solved. Didn't matter how.

Only with this kind of special atmosphere of fear, where everyone was afraid of risking their career when they said something wrong, was it possible in my opinion, that such highly skilled engineers and managers didn't wonder why the difficult problem with cleaning the diesel was solved so easily. And I suppose nobody dared digging deeper, because they'd had to report it and probably would have gotten heavily berated.

I think Winterkorn suffered from "Cesar Delusion" and didn't help that in contrast to other car makers VW isn't exactly a paragon of transparency to outsiders and shareholders. Everyone around him told him again and again that everything was fine and that there were no problems, only to keep his favour. It's what happens in dictatorships - until things have become really messed up and a cleansing revolution takes place.

And that has what to do with the fact that I don't see black smoke coming out of diesels these days? You made the assertion that decreasing NOx emissions increases black smoke and particulates, yet I do not see diesels rolling coal in my daily driving/walking since those diesels clearly meet current emission standards your assertion holds as much water as a rusted collander.

Let me ask you a simple question: Do you deny that diesel exhaust fumes contain other potentially dangerous substances than NOx?

Do you really think NOx is the only dangerous element here? It's as he said in the YouTube video: Partical filters more or less killed off the smoke in modern diesels but that doesn't mean it's not there anymore. Maybe not so much in America but here you see (and smell) those old smoking, stinking diesels every day. In order to filter the tiny particles the smoke consists of, you automatically raise the amount of NOx the engine emits, hence the necessity of the urea injection to counteract that. Getting a diesel clean, is a bit like trying to nail Jell-O to a wall. I don't think that is too difficult to understand.

What VW did, was fraud. It was a criminal act. But it cannot cover up the fact that basically every diesel engine in the world (as well as every petrol engine) emits substances that are dangerous to our health. So the major fact that people might have problem with asthma because of exhausts, is not because VW cheated on one of their engines - but that engines-in-itself exist in the first place.

Technical progress doesn't come without a price. We pay that price every day by breathing in the exhausts. And all of us, you, me, everyone adds to it by creating more exhaust every single hour of every single day...

In other parts of the world there is slave labor and child labor because people in the First World like to have smartphones and cheap clothing. Our world isn't perfect but sueing VW because they intoxicated your granddaughter is about as logical as sueing the ozone hole for giving you skin cancer.

If you want clean air, you have to go back before the industrial revolution. But then you would have probably died of some disease doctors couldn't treat back then ;)
 
Last edited:

argatoga

Can't Start His Wank
Joined
Oct 4, 2005
Messages
18,202
Location
Seattle
Car(s)
'13 Moto Guzzi V7, '08 Pontiac Solstice GXP
Let me ask you a simple question: Do you deny that diesel exhaust fumes contain other potentially dangerous substances than NOx?

Do you really think NOx is the only dangerous element here? It's as he said in the YouTube video: Partical filters more or less killed off the smoke in modern diesels but that doesn't mean it's not there anymore. Maybe not so much in America but here you see (and smell) those old smoking, stinking diesels every day. In order to filter the tiny particles the smoke consists of, you automatically raise the amount of NOx the engine emits, hence the necessity of the urea injection to counteract that. Getting a diesel clean, is a bit like trying to nail Jell-O to a wall. I don't think that is too difficult to understand.

What VW did, was fraud. It was a criminal act. But it cannot cover up the fact that basically every diesel engine in the world (as well as every petrol engine) emits substances that are dangerous to our health. So the major fact that people might have problem with asthma because of exhausts, is not because VW cheated on one of their engines - but that engines-in-itself exist in the first place.

Technical progress doesn't come without a price. We pay that price every day by breathing in the exhausts. And all of us, you, me, everyone adds to it by creating more exhaust every single hour of every single day...

In other parts of the world there is slave labor and child labor because people in the First World like to have smartphones and cheap clothing. Our world isn't perfect but sueing VW because they intoxicated your granddaughter is about as logical as sueing the ozone hole for giving you skin cancer.

If you want clean air, you have to go back before the industrial revolution. But then you would have probably died of some disease doctors couldn't treat back then ;)

Wow.

So again you say dumping toxic waste into the air isn't as bad because others are dumping toxic waste as well. You're making a jump that there is no regulations concerning the other toxins released by Diesel. Then you try to offset VW's crime saying eluding that there is no fix (there is, it is called urea injection).

Then you jump into a red herring concerning child and slave labor :rolleyes:.

And apparently, we shouldn't bother trying to clean up our environment, because we will never be like the pre industrial era. :rolleyes:
 

SirEdward

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2008
Messages
2,077
Location
Bologna, Italy
Car(s)
VW Polo mkVI
Wow.

So again you say dumping toxic waste into the air isn't as bad because others are dumping toxic waste as well. You're making a jump that there is no regulations concerning the other toxins released by Diesel. Then you try to offset VW's crime saying eluding that there is no fix (there is, it is called urea injection).

I read his words as saying that the whole idea of going on a crusade against Volkswagen by accusing them of causing asthma in children is ludicrous and populist. Air pollution exists outside of VW and of its diesel engines, and children would have had asthma even without this fraud.

And in this he is right:
If VW is to be punished, which it is, the reason is not asthma for children, but willingly cheating on a governmental emission regulation and lack of care about the environmental footprint of their products. There is a crime, there are laws, there is punishment; they need to be enforced. The children's asthma attributed to a foreign, minoritarian producer of scarcely sold diesel engine in a country running on wild energy overconsumption is quite disgusting populism.

But you (we, everyone) need the little children to be able to move the public opinion enough to get things done. General talks about environment, energy consumption, pollution and consequences on our world are too far from the lives of a too many people to have any effect whatsoever on lifestyles with a willful inertia to changing; most of the world is like this, it is human. So, children are used. Which doesn't really solve the problem, just exploits it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: MWF
Top