Volkswagen is in trouble with just about everybody on the f'ing planet

prizrak

Forum Addict
Joined
Apr 2, 2007
Messages
21,601
Location
No, sleep, till, BROOKLYN
Car(s)
11 Xterra Pro-4x, 12 'stang GT
No, the taxes all but equalize the difference, in relative terms. Without going into specs, the cheapest 1-series is only about 10% more than the cheapest Golf. Over here that gap is more like 33%.
That's my understanding as well, they mostly tax on HP, I remember when I was hanging out with Adrian he said they didn't even get Z's because no one would buy it since it would end up being like 100K (USD) car (if not more).
 

argatoga

Can't Start His Wank
Joined
Oct 4, 2005
Messages
18,072
Location
Seattle
Car(s)
'13 Moto Guzzi V7, '08 Pontiac Solstice GXP
Well, my little sister has a VW Golf with the cheat program, and there is no way she will ever get another VW car.
This is an approximate translation of what she said:
"There is no way in Hell I will ever buy another fucking product from that god damn horses cock of a company!"

Norwegian: "Ikkje faen om eg kj?per et anna j?vla produkt fra den f?rrbanna h?stkukbedriften!"
I like the Google translation better

Not a damn if I buy a fucking anna product from the previous banna h?stkukbedriften !
 

kurthest

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2008
Messages
709
Location
Norway
Car(s)
2008 BMW 335i Coupe (e92)
Do you mean you pay -more- taxes for a -premium- car than for a -standard- car with the same hp?
Well, yes, you do actually. You pay the same HP tax, but usually the premium car will be heavier and you also pay tax for weight, CO2- and NOx emissions.
But the norwegian importers also get the premium car cheaper from the factory, because of the taxes.
They even get special models where the engines are downtuned for lower HP tax.
 
Last edited:

SirEdward

Well-Known Member
Joined
Dec 25, 2008
Messages
1,964
Location
Bologna, Italy
Car(s)
VW Golf MkV
Ok, that's better.

Thanks! :)

In a sense, I like the idea of rationally taxing each one of these elements separately and then adding the total up. I do find that the total taxes for cars in Norway are preposterous, though.
 
Last edited:

prizrak

Forum Addict
Joined
Apr 2, 2007
Messages
21,601
Location
No, sleep, till, BROOKLYN
Car(s)
11 Xterra Pro-4x, 12 'stang GT
Taxing horse power is retarded, as is weight really, you can tax on emissions and/or efficiency and would essentially take into account HP and weight otherwise you are basically disincentivizing efficiency improvements. Case in point the Ecoboost Mustang makes more power and same torque as the 05-09 V8s but gets much better fuel efficiency. Under Norway rules there isn't a whole lot of incentive to buy the ecoboost though, especially since they are heavier.
 

narf

Sgt. Maj. Buzzkill
DONOR
Joined
Feb 1, 2008
Messages
18,278
Location
Kiel/Wherever, Germany
Car(s)
'19 BMW M240i
Under Norway rules there isn't a whole lot of incentive to buy the ecoboost though, especially since they are heavier.
Uhm, have you seen their fuel prices? I think my most expensive fill-up this summer was >1.8?/l, or >$8/gal.

Looking at the current Mustang, the GT is 65% more than the EcoBoost.
 
Last edited:

prizrak

Forum Addict
Joined
Apr 2, 2007
Messages
21,601
Location
No, sleep, till, BROOKLYN
Car(s)
11 Xterra Pro-4x, 12 'stang GT
Uhm, have you seen their fuel prices? I think my most expensive fill-up this summer was >1.8?/l, or >$8/gal.

Looking at the current Mustang, the GT is 65% more than the EcoBoost.
I'm talking the old GT vs new EcoBoost and yeah fuel pricing would be a make it or break it in this case.
 

prizrak

Forum Addict
Joined
Apr 2, 2007
Messages
21,601
Location
No, sleep, till, BROOKLYN
Car(s)
11 Xterra Pro-4x, 12 'stang GT
Yeah, but I'm ignoring a price comparison of models with ten years between them :p
My point is that it makes little sense to get a more efficient car when you are taxed on both power and weight. This is why I used the specific cars for comparison because they are basically same power but different efficiency. New GT would be even more because its well north of 400HP (can't remember exact figure). If you want a comparison from this year 370z vs EcoBoost Mustang, close enough in power but the latter much better on fuel.
 

narf

Sgt. Maj. Buzzkill
DONOR
Joined
Feb 1, 2008
Messages
18,278
Location
Kiel/Wherever, Germany
Car(s)
'19 BMW M240i
So... Volkswagen announced a loss of 3,5 billion euros for the third quarter of 2015.
Yeah, with 6.7bn? accruals included in that.

- - - Updated - - -

My point is that it makes little sense to get a more efficient car when you are taxed on both power and weight. This is why I used the specific cars for comparison because they are basically same power but different efficiency. New GT would be even more because its well north of 400HP (can't remember exact figure). If you want a comparison from this year 370z vs EcoBoost Mustang, close enough in power but the latter much better on fuel.
Power and weight aren't the only tax components, there's also emissions such as CO2 and NOx and likely more. CO2 at least is linearly related to petrol consumption.
 

MacGuffin

Forum Addict
DONOR
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
Messages
8,289
Location
Wilhelmshaven, Germany
Car(s)
'17 Ford Mustang GT Fastback
CO2 at least is linearly related to petrol consumption.
That's why the emphasis in America is on NOx and not CO2. If the CO2 would be handled as strictly there as well, it would be the end of the V8 paradise...

Which is worse, CO2 or NOx? Personally I'd consider CO2 a bigger threat because it has global implications.
 

prizrak

Forum Addict
Joined
Apr 2, 2007
Messages
21,601
Location
No, sleep, till, BROOKLYN
Car(s)
11 Xterra Pro-4x, 12 'stang GT
That's why the emphasis in America is on NOx and not CO2. If the CO2 would be handled as strictly there as well, it would be the end of the V8 paradise...

Which is worse, CO2 or NOx? Personally I'd consider CO2 a bigger threat because it has global implications.
If CO2 is linear to gas consumption than CAFE takes care of CO2 by proxy.
 

JimCorrigan

Well-Known Member
Joined
Jul 13, 2011
Messages
4,105
Location
Pacific Rim
Car(s)
HMCS Velvet Glove; The Last Samurai
That's why the emphasis in America is on NOx and not CO2. If the CO2 would be handled as strictly there as well, it would be the end of the V8 paradise...

Which is worse, CO2 or NOx? Personally I'd consider CO2 a bigger threat because it has global implications.
So the one that is unproven to cause harm is more dangerous than the one that is?

The government in the US couldn't care less about the enthusiasts and their V8s.
 
Last edited:

prizrak

Forum Addict
Joined
Apr 2, 2007
Messages
21,601
Location
No, sleep, till, BROOKLYN
Car(s)
11 Xterra Pro-4x, 12 'stang GT
So the one that is unproven to cause harm is more dangerous than the one that is?

The government in the US couldn't care less about the enthusiasts and their V8s.
I wouldn't say it's unproven really, it's about as proven as it can be considering we can't do a controlled experiment on a global scale. However figuring that enthusiasts are a tiny percentage of total motoring public and that private transport is a small portion of total emissions anyway... Or hell even compare my car to the current V8 Mustang, the latter makes 120 more HP and manages to beat my car by 1mpg so yeah... Hell if you are that worried about globlal warming get rid of the beef industry, methane is a way more potent greenhouse gas.
 

kurthest

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 4, 2008
Messages
709
Location
Norway
Car(s)
2008 BMW 335i Coupe (e92)
That's why the emphasis in America is on NOx and not CO2. If the CO2 would be handled as strictly there as well, it would be the end of the V8 paradise...

Which is worse, CO2 or NOx? Personally I'd consider CO2 a bigger threat because it has global implications.
Plants need CO2 to grow.
NOx can straight out kill you.
 

MWF

Now needs wood
Joined
May 29, 2008
Messages
28,206
Location
MWF HQ, Ukadia
Car(s)
MX-5 1.8i Indiana SE, update pending
CO will kill you quicker and you won't know a thing about it.
 

narf

Sgt. Maj. Buzzkill
DONOR
Joined
Feb 1, 2008
Messages
18,278
Location
Kiel/Wherever, Germany
Car(s)
'19 BMW M240i
That's why the emphasis in America is on NOx and not CO2. If the CO2 would be handled as strictly there as well, it would be the end of the V8 paradise...

Which is worse, CO2 or NOx? Personally I'd consider CO2 a bigger threat because it has global implications.
Impossible to compare. A gram of NOx is worse than a gram of CO2, but then a car always puts out more CO2 than NOx in terms of g/km.
If you're in the Netherlands or Florida, CO2 probably is your bigger problem. If you're in LA, NOx probably is your bigger problem.

Also what prizrak says, CAFE effectively regulates CO2 output in the US.

- - - Updated - - -

Plants need CO2 to grow.
They have plenty of "plant food", even without burning any fossil fuel whatsoever. Plants grew just fine before we started to even light wood fires.

NOx can straight out kill you.
So can CO2. Just breathe a high enough concentration and you'll keel over quite quickly. Hell, even a fairly low concentration of 2000ppm will make you drowsy.

- - - Updated - - -

CO will kill you quicker and you won't know a thing about it.
True, but nobody's been talking about CO. CO output of modern cars is fairly low.
 

M_Bolc

Well-Known Member
Joined
Aug 31, 2006
Messages
798
Location
San Jos?, Costa Rica
Car(s)
2015 Audi A3 1.2TFSI
So the article cited in the previous page confirms what I thought was the only way this could happen: some lazy idiots thought this would be a great idea, people eventually found out, failed to report it and now management and compliance have to clean this up.

I can't imagine the reactions and mood in the room when upper management found out, or the extreme pressure the people who finally fessed up must have put up with for a year while they tried to cover it up.
 

MacGuffin

Forum Addict
DONOR
Joined
Mar 29, 2008
Messages
8,289
Location
Wilhelmshaven, Germany
Car(s)
'17 Ford Mustang GT Fastback
Apparently the internal investigations are currently somewhat treading water, so they want to create a principal witness system, where the one who confesses, doesn't get fired.
 
Top