Volkswagen is in trouble with just about everybody on the f'ing planet

jasonof2000

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In other words, you want the livelihood of every single employee at VW and their suppliers to be at risk if no one finds a way to punish the criminal managers individually. Real class. :rolleyes:

I don't give a crap about them. I work at a defense contractor, if we screw up and lose the contract I'm out of a job. They'll get another one, someone will buy the factory and make other cars or buy the rights to VW designs in the fire sale.
 

Spectre

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AFAIK, that would be illegal. German workers can only go on strike for a very limited number of reasons, mainly financial ones. So on your world, they can risk their jobs by striking illegally or face losing them due to foreign judges who couldn't be bothered to punish the individuals who actually did wrong.

This smells an awful lot like, "but I vas only followink orders!"

BTW, the company is not ruined.

Yet. If they keep doing what they're doing, it will be.

The big nasty waiting in the wings now is China. China may soon be moving against VW as well as there are rumbles that VW even cheated on the craptacularly loose enviro regs in *China*. And China's the only market they're not slipping in.

No, it does not. Otherwise you would be consenting to a fuckload of horrible things every second of your life.

For a directly involved party? Yes, yes, it does. VW's unions are accessories to the crimes in the fact that they (as far as anyone knows) willingly assembled the cheating vehicles in question - there has not been any international statement disclaiming knowledge from the German unions that I am aware of, and even if there were it would be a little hard to believe given the partial ownership of VW by the unions and the unions' participation in VW governance.

Labor representatives hold three of the five seats on the powerful executive committee, and half the board seats are held by union officials and labor.

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I don't give a crap about them. I work at a defense contractor, if we screw up and lose the contract I'm out of a job. They'll get another one, someone will buy the factory and make other cars or buy the rights to VW designs in the fire sale.

This. So very much this. We've already been down the 'too big to fail' path - haven't we learned that it's better to go ahead and let them burn yet???
 
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calvinhobbes

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I don't give a crap about them.
This. So very much this.
Ooookay. You're itching for hundreds of thousands of jobs to be risked when A) most of the people affected didn't even about the fraudulent software in question and B) punishing the people who actually developed and/or approved it is very much possible without fining the company into oblivion. That is despicable. I'm done here.
 

jasonof2000

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Ooookay. You're itching for hundreds of thousands of jobs to be risked when A) most of the people affected didn't even about the fraudulent software in question and B) punishing the people who actually developed and/or approved it is very much possible without fining the company into oblivion. That is despicable. I'm done here.

And you are proposing protecting those who approved and perpetuated the cheating, the lying and the destroying of evidence. No company should be too big to fail, I disapproved of bailing out the banks, GM and Chrysler as well.
 

calvinhobbes

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And you are proposing protecting those who approved and perpetuated the cheating, the lying and the destroying of evidence.
No. You even quoted the bit where I said the exact opposite earlier on:

a way to punish the criminal managers individually.
I propose protecting the people who had nothing to do with and didn't know about the cheating, lying and destruction of evidence, i.e. most of the rank-and-file employees. I also speak out against ludicrous claims such as Spectre's that the lack of illegal strikes against management policies constitutes consent with those crimes.
 

Mitchi

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I wonder how US-americans would react if a US-based company would've done exactly the same.

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until the people who ruined 'their' company fess up and resign.

Completely blown out of proportion

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This smells an awful lot like, "but I vas only followink orders!"

Are you for real? Like, really?
 

rickhamilton620

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I wonder how US-americans would react if a US-based company would've done exactly the same.

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Completely blown out of proportion
When GM and Chrysler went bankrupt - there was massive public outcry to let them fail, employees lower on the totem pole be damned - "they should have seen the light and left before things imploded, not my problem and not my tax dollars" was and remains to be many Americans outcry.

Many people are still pissed and refuse to buy a GM or FCA product no matter how well it may fit their lifestyle.

Here in the states people very much have a "you pull yourself up and if you fail it's your responsibility, not mine!" mentality.
 

GRtak

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I wonder how US-americans would react if a US-based company would've done exactly the same.



Those directly involved fired. This everyone seems to agree on. Should it extend to those that later found out and did not tell anyone? I think so. They became part of the problem.

I think the company actively destroying evidence is also going to be problematic when uncovering who knew what and when. So anyone involved in the cover up should also be fired.

There has to be some punishment beyond those that were directly involved, especially as it seems it went to the top of the company. I don't think it will benefit anyone to fine them into oblivion, but it has to be a hefty fine. The amount of the fine should make stockholders revolt and overturn the current leadership(Board of directors, top level management, and a good portion of secondary management in diesel engine development) and put in place an awards system for whistle blowers to prevent such things from happening again.


I also think there has to be a change in the way the Government evaluates and certifies the vehicles on several levels. I see this as much a failure on their part as well as VW being able to exploit it at all.
 
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JimCorrigan

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I wonder how US-americans would react if a US-based company would've done exactly the same.
I can attest to both Americans and Canadians (because we ponied up huge, and ended up with 12% stake in GM!) having the exact same attitude during the bailout of GM and Chrysler. General consensus was that this was a festering wound and bailing them out would only temporarily solve a problem that required a fundamental change of course.

We're being consistent here. With all due respect to calvinhobbes' family and others who may be VW employees, the unions need to declare themselves away from the administrative clusterfuck as to not be implicated. If they lose their jobs because the company goes south, that would be a horrible thing.... but the key here is to not let VW itself off the hook on the basis of "just think about the children!"
 

narf

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For a directly involved party? Yes, yes, it does. VW's unions are accessories to the crimes in the fact that they (as far as anyone knows) willingly assembled the cheating vehicles in question - there has not been any international statement disclaiming knowledge from the German unions that I am aware of, and even if there were it would be a little hard to believe given the partial ownership of VW by the unions and the unions' participation in VW governance.

Labour representatives participating 50-50 in corporate governance is a legal requirement for large companies (>2000 employees): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitbestimmungsgesetz

As for union ownership, where do you get that from? VW is mostly owned by the Porsche family, the state of Lower Saxony, and Qatar.
 

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VW Gets More Time to Hammer Out U.S. Diesel-Cheating Accords


Volkswagen AG will have an extra week to finalize a settlement with the U.S. government and owners of affected diesel-powered cars in its emissions cheating case after a federal judge delayed the deadline, citing the ?highly technical nature? of the negotiations.

A draft agreement will now have to be filed by noon in San Francisco on June 28, according to a court order Wednesday issued at the behest of settlement master Robert Mueller. A hearing to approve the plans to get some 480,000 cars off U.S. roads will remain scheduled for July 26, according to the order.

The delay denies Volkswagen the opportunity to present a conclusion to investors at what is likely to be a testy annual shareholders meeting on June 22. Without the settlement, the German carmaker?s efforts to navigate out of the crisis remain incomplete nine months after admitting to rigging the exhaust systems in some 11 million vehicles worldwide. The company is said to have earmarked at least $10 billion to resolve civil claims in the U.S., and it set aside 16.2 billion euros ($18.3 billion) to cover the global costs of the scandal.

The talks involve the complex task of doling out money to owners, including private buyers and lease holders. There are also three generations of affected engines and numerous models affected. The negotiations also include establishing pricing criteria for vehicles that consumers want to sell back to Volkswagen.
Shares Fall

The order by U.S. District Judge Charles Breyer in San Francisco came hours before Volkswagen Chief Executive Officer Matthias Mueller is set to present the manufacturer?s strategy for the decade ahead. The goals of that plan include leading the company beyond its era of crisis and into one of electric and self-driving cars.

Volkswagen fell 0.8 percent to 119.15 euros as of 11:42 a.m. in Frankfurt. The stock has recovered 38 percent since its crisis low in October.

Volkswagen, based in Wolfsburg, Germany, admitted last year that it had manipulated diesel engines with a ?defeat device? so full emissions controls switched on only during pollution tests. A plan to fix the 8.5 million noncompliant cars in Europe was largely approved in December but failed to meet U.S. requirements because of differing standards.

The case is In Re: Volkswagen ?Clean Diesel? Marketing, Sales Practices and Products Liability Litigation, MDL 2672, U.S. District Court, Northern District of California (San Francisco).
 

GRtak

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VW And Regulators Reportedly Near Emissions Scandal Deal

Details are beginning to emerge of a proposed deal between Volkswagen and U.S. regulators over the company's diesel emissions scandal. June 28 is the deadline set by a federal judge for lawyers for the company and several U.S.-agency plaintiffs to come up with a deal.

VW has admitted to knowingly installing devices to deceive regulators about emissions from its cars' diesel engines. According to publications including Bloomberg, the Wall Street Journal and the Associated Press, the company will agree to pay $10 billion to compensate customers. In addition, it is expected to pay $4 billion for environmental remediation and to develop cleaner vehicles. A Volkswagen spokesman refused comment, citing confidentiality agreements.

Both General Motors and Toyota have been forced to pay billions for their emissions and sudden acceleration recall scandals. With a market capitalization of $73 billion, the reported $14 billion price tag doesn't pose an existential threat to Volkswagen. While VW is a very minor player in the U.S. market, worldwide it's locked in a battle with Toyota for global automotive supremacy. And the company didn't experience the U.S. economic crisis in the same way American companies did. And Germany's economy allowed Volkswagen to acquire (and keep) rich assets that could go on sale on now. Porsche, Audi, Bugatti, Bentley, and the Czech car brand Skoda are all under the VW tent.

Critics are calling for more than financial penalties. "It shouldn't require a federal judge to rule for Volkswagen to do right by its customers," Democratic Sens. Ed Markey of Massachusetts and Richard Blumenthal of Connecticut, both members of the Senate Committee On Commerce, Science, & Transportation said in a joint statement. The senators add, "we continue to call on the Department of Justice to vigorously pursue its criminal investigation against VW executives who knowingly and intentionally deceived regulators."

Clarence Ditlow heads the Center for Auto Safety says the car companies like Volkswagen shouldn't be allowed to write a check when they're caught in wrongdoing: "The only thing that will really change corporate behavior in the auto industry is sending auto industry executives to jail not letting them write bigger checks."
 

rickhamilton620

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Just when VW thought they were digging themselves out.....they dug themselves deeper:

TTAC said:
Three unapproved software programs were found on Volkswagen, Audi and Porsche models outfitted with 3.0-liter diesel engines, a German newspaper reports.

The publication Bild am Sonntag said that U.S. authorities discovered the software, though it didn?t reveal a source for the information, according to Reuters (via Automotive News).


The software programs were reportedly designed to shut down the vehicle?s emissions systems after 22 minutes of driving, cheating emissions tests that normally run for 20 minutes.


The automaker recalled about 85,000 diesel-equipped Porsche Cayenne, Audi Q7 and Volkswagen Touareg models in the U.S. in the wake of the diesel emissions scandal. It maintains that it will be able to fix those vehicles, which aren?t included in the $15.3 billion buyback settlement.


The California Air Resources Board recently rejected Volkswagen?s proposed 3.0-liter diesel fix, calling it ?incomplete and deficient in a number of areas.? A nationwide fix for the vehicles needs approval from both CARB and the Environmental Protection Agency.


After creating a buyback program for its 475,000 U.S. 2.0-liter diesel models, the automaker wants to avoid a similar fate for its larger engines. The 3.0-liter engine is found in high-end SUVs, making any buyback program extremely costly.


Audi built the affected engines, and its engineers created the emissions-cheating ?defeat device? software back in 1999. Executives from Audi will appear in a hearing with U.S. regulators on August 10, Bild am Sonntag reports.

Source: http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/20...d-volkswagen-groups-3-0-liter-diesels-report/
 

jasonof2000

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...Can't...stop...laughing...
 

Mitchi

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GRtak

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Volkswagen, U.S. Justice Dept discuss settling criminal probe: sources

Volkswagen AG (VOWG_p.DE) and the U.S. Justice Department have held preliminary settlement talks about resolving a criminal probe into the automaker's diesel emissions scandal, two sources briefed on the matter said.

Reuters reported in June that a criminal settlement could include a consent decree, an independent monitor overseeing the German automaker's conduct and significant yet-to-be determined fines for emissions violations.

The Wall Street Journal reported on Monday that the fines could top $1.2 billion.

The pace of VW's internal investigation together with complications from separate civil suits filed in July by three U.S. states have slowed progress on reaching a settlement of the criminal investigation, according to people familiar with the probe.

The Justice Department declined to comment.

In June, VW agreed to pay as $15.3 billion after admitting it cheated on U.S. diesel emissions tests for years. The company agreed to buy back vehicles from consumers and provide funding that could benefit makers of cleaner technologies.

VW agreed to set aside $10.033 billion to cover buybacks or fixes for 475,000 2.0 liter diesel cars and sport utility vehicles that used illegal software to defeat government emissions tests.

Under the Justice Department deal, VW will spend $2 billion over 10 years to fund programs directed by California and EPA to promote construction of infrastructure to charge electric vehicles, development of zero-emission ride-sharing fleets and other efforts to boost sales of cars that do not burn petroleum.

VW also agreed to put up $2.7 billion over three years to enable government and tribal agencies to replace old buses or to fund infrastructure to reduce diesel emissions.

VW could face billions of dollars more in costs in the United States if it is forced to buy back 85,000 3.0 liter Audi, Porsche and VW cars and SUVs sold since 2009.

Last month, three U.S. states led by New York filed suits seeking at least hundreds of millions of dollars and said senior executives at Volkswagen including its former chief executive covered up evidence that the German automaker had cheated on U.S. diesel emissions tests for years.

A VW spokesman said the company "is committed to earning back the trust of our customers, dealers, regulators and the American public. As we have said previously, Volkswagen is cooperating with federal and state regulators in the United States, including the Department of Justice, and our discussions are continuing toward a resolution of remaining issues.?

The fine to resolve the U.S. criminal investigation could be the largest ever imposed on an automaker, surpassing the $1.2 billion paid by Toyota Motor Corp in 2014 to resolve a Justice Department investigation into its handling of sudden unintended acceleration incidents.

In September, General Motors Co paid $900 million and signed a deferred-prosecution agreement to end a Justice Department investigation into its handling of an ignition-switch defect linked to 124 deaths. Both automakers agreed to three years of oversight by an outside monitor.
 

GRtak

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For those of you that think the US of A is being hard on VW:

South Korea issues arrest warrant for VW executive in emissions probe

A South Korean court on Friday issued the first warrant for the arrest of a Volkswagen AG (VOWG_p.DE) executive in connection with its cheating of vehicle emissions tests, in another blow to the German automaker's efforts to move on from the scandal.

The warrant is the first to be levelled against a Volkswagen executive anywhere in the world after the firm in September admitted to using software to falsify pollution tests on some diesel cars, spurring legal action in the United States, Germany, South Korea and elsewhere.

"This is just the beginning of the investigation," an official at the prosecution office said, declining to be named because the investigation was ongoing.

The Volkswagen Korea executive, identified by his last name Yun, faced five accusations including fabrication of documents and violation of the Air Quality Preservation Law, Seoul Central District Court spokesman Shin Jae-hwan said.

"The court acknowledges the reason and the necessity of the arrest," he told Reuters, declining to give further details or name the executive.

A Volkswagen Korea spokeswoman declined to comment.

South Korea has taken a particularly hard line against the automaker, filing a criminal complaint against two other executives, fining it 14.1 billion won ($11.97 million) and ordering it to recall 125,522 vehicles.

About 4,400 Korean consumers also have filed a class action lawsuit against Volkswagen and sister marque Audi demanding compensation over the false emissions claims.

Sources in the United States on Thursday said Volkswagen would pay more than $10 billion to settle claims by nearly 500,000 owners and fund efforts to offset pollution.

The South Korean arrest warrant comes after German prosecutors on Monday said they were investigating former Volkswagen CEO Martin Winterkorn and another executive over whether they effectively manipulated markets by delaying the release of information about the test cheating.

South Korean prosecutors would cooperate with their counterparts in Germany and the United States, the official said in Seoul.

The scandal has triggered a slide in Volkswagen's share of Asia's No.2 diesel car market, where it competes with dominant domestic players Hyundai Motor (005380.KS) and Kia Motors (000270.KS).

Volkswagen said in April it would set aside 16.2 billion euros ($18.2 billion) and slash its dividend to cover the costs from the scandal.


This has also happened.

Bosch sued over alleged role in VW diesel emissions scandal

German auto supplier Robert Bosch GmbH has been accused of conspiring with Volkswagen AG (VOWG_p.DE) to evade diesel emissions standards in at least 11 million vehicles worldwide in a class action lawsuit filed late on Monday.

The lawsuit filed by a New York diesel owner in U.S. District Court in Detroit names Bosch - the world's largest auto supplier - along with VW, former VW CEO Martin Winterkorn and VW U.S. chief Michael Horn.

"Volkswagen's fraudulent scheme was facilitated and aided and abetted by defendant Bosch, which created the software used in Volkswagen's defeat device," said the 56-page lawsuit, which accuses the parties of violating civil racketeering laws and consumer fraud.

"Bosch's Hear no evil, See no evil' rationale for knowingly profiting from Volkswagen's crimes does not enable Bosch to escape civil liability under American law."

Reuters reported last month that federal prosecutors with the U.S. Justice Department are examining whether Bosch knew or participated in Volkswagen's years-long efforts to circumvent U.S. diesel emissions tests, citing people familiar with the matter.

Bosch built key components in the diesel engine used in six Volkswagen models and one Audi model that the automaker has admitted to rigging to defeat emissions tests.

The probe of Bosch is at an early stage and there is no indication that U.S. prosecutors have found evidence of wrongdoing at Bosch, people familiar with the matter told Reuters.

A U.S. Bosch spokeswoman declined to offer an immediate comment on the lawsuit. Bosch previously declined to comment on the investigation.

Bosch also faces similar class-action lawsuits in Atlanta, Chicago, Cincinnati, Alabama and Alexandria, Virginia.

The latest lawsuit says "as early as 2007, Bosch warned Volkswagen that using its software in vehicles that were driven on the road would constitute a criminal offence. Nevertheless, Bosch proceeded to sell or license 11 million of the component devices to Volkswagen over the next seven years."

The lawsuit cited a report from Germany's Bild am Sonntag newspaper in September that said VW's internal probe had turned up a 2007 letter from Bosch that also warned against the possible illegal use of Bosch-supplied software technology.

Under U.S. law, that would make Bosch a co-conspirator under anti-racketeering laws, making the company liable for triple damages for the fraud caused to U.S. consumers, the lawsuit says.

A U.S. judicial panel will meet in New Orleans Thursday to consider consolidating more than 350 lawsuits filed against VW in connection with the emissions scandal. VW and the Justice Department want the lawsuits centralized in Detroit.
 

rickhamilton620

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First criminal charge.....

TheVerge said:
James Liang, a veteran Volkswagen engineer, pled guilty Friday to conspiring to defraud the American public about its vehicle emissions, Bloomberg reports. It is the first criminal charge in the ongoing Dieselgate scandal that has loomed over the German company since last September.Liang entered his plea in Detroit federal court on Friday and is cooperating with the investigation, Bloomberg notes. This could mean more resignations for a company that has already seen its CEO and chief US executive step down in the wake of the scandal.

Volkswagen is in negotiations with the Department of Justice to settle the case before the end of the year, but federal prosecutors said they expect to file additional criminal charges before then. Liang appears to be the first of those charged with criminal negligence in the case. Liang, a 25-year veteran of the company, was the head of Volkswagen?s Diesel Competence unit in the US.

The company has already agreed to a pay the federal government $14.7 billion and remove 482,000 emissions-cheating diesel cars off the roads. But it?s likely that the various criminal charges and civil lawsuits and settlements will continue for quite some time, costing the German automaker potentially tens of billions of dollars.

Source: http://www.theverge.com/2016/9/9/12...neer-pleads-guilty-emissions-cheating-scandal
 

GRtak

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The guys at Autoline have been talking about this being possible over the last few days due to the head of sales being investigated at FCA.
 

GRtak

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No real news, there is an incredible lack of information for the last few months, but an interesting video.

 
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