VW presents the XL 1 (a "not for petrolheads" thread)

MacGuffin

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Mind the warning. This is not a petrolhead thread. This is about technical limits. So it's a geek thread. Back up, redneck truck drivers :p

Everybody probably knows VW patriarch Ferdinand Piech. He achieved a lot in his time, for example introducing 4-wheel-drive to normal cars and pushing through "mad" projects like the VW Phaeton or the Bugatti Veyron.

However, there is one project on his personal tick list, one self-declared goal the 73-year-old Piech didn't achieve yet: He wanted to create the "1-Liter-Auto", or, for our English-speaking friends, the "235-mpg-car".

Previous attempts all looked like miserable prototypes usually look: Miserable.

But I think the newly annonced VW XL 1 prototype might be a looker and ironically it will be shown for the first time in Qatar, where fuel consumption is a non-issue.

There are only computer images of the two-seater so far:

image-173130-galleryV9-egan.jpg


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This is a plug-in hybrid with a 2-cylinder TDI engine. It can run 35 km in electrical mode, before having to use up diesel. Some technical data:

Air drag coefficient: 0.186
Weight: 795 kg
Power: 75 HP (48 HP diesel, 27 HP electrical)
0-100 km/h: 11.9 seconds
Top speed: 160 km/h (limited)
Torque: 140 Nm from the start
Range: 550 km with a 10-liter (!) fuel tank
Fuel consumption: 0.9 liters/100 km (or 261 mpg)



And it has gullwing doors...

Officially this is only a "technical study" to show the potential of the internal combustion engine in our times of battery-powered electrical cars hysteria. But in a foot note of the dossier a possible "small series" is mentioned, if there is a demand. Price: About 100,000 Euros.
 
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MWF

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Well it's a fuck sight better looking than a Prius. Fit a removable T-top for the summer and build enough to make it affordable, then sell a 2L version with some performance and I'll have one for when they defrost Sly Stallone and Wesley Snipes.
 

narf

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He wanted to create the "1-Liter-Auto", or, for our English-speaking friends, the "282-mpg-car".

FTFY. It'd be the 235-mpg-car for our American-speaking friends :tease:

Range: 1100 km with a 10-liter (!) fuel tank
Fuel consumption: 0.9 liters/100 km (or 314 mpg)

FTFY?. 10/0.9 is 11.
 
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MacGuffin

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H0nzik

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Yeah, well, the range is extrapolated for when you actually have to use the diesel engine. The minimum consumption of 0.9 liters is the ideal, when you make the most use of the electrical engine.

So in other words, it is the same trick (lie) as GM used with the Volt and the actual average consumption is 1,8l/100 km. Which is not all that impressive considering all the extra cost and technology since there has already been the 3L Lupo long ago and the current Polo Bluemotion doesn't do all that much worse either. And both of those cars are vastly more practical. In fact, how is this actually better than the previous L1 car, which, as far as I can remember, could achieve a fuel consumption around 1l/100km without lying and could also seat 2 people, albeit in less comfort. In the end of the day, the only contribution to science that this concept makes is, that adding all the heavy technological gadgetry leads to worse results that throwing all the crap away and adding lightness.
 

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The price is a bit high, a Polo Bluemotion will use 3 times as much diesel, while costing around 5 times less, but I like is as an engineering exercise.
 

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So in other words, it is the same trick (lie) as GM used with the Volt and the actual average consumption is 1,8l/100 km. Which is not all that impressive considering all the extra cost and technology since there has already been the 3L Lupo long ago and the current Polo Bluemotion doesn't do all that much worse either. And both of those cars are vastly more practical. In fact, how is this actually better than the previous L1 car, which, as far as I can remember, could achieve a fuel consumption around 1l/100km without lying and could also seat 2 people, albeit in less comfort. In the end of the day, the only contribution to science that this concept makes is, that adding all the heavy technological gadgetry leads to worse results that throwing all the crap away and adding lightness.

The first car was all carbon and not really producable:

58593973_77493689f8.jpg


It already had LED headlights in 2000. That is 11 years ago. It had no electrical engine and only did 120km/h, only managed to get under 1l when driving 70km/h.

This is the 2009 L1 study:

701px-VW_L1.JPG



I think it is not a consumers car yet, but neither is the Veyron or were the old S-Classes, yet we still use technology introduced in these high-profile projects like the Airbag, ABS, ESP, GPS etc.. It is just showing the world "we CAN do it, now create a demand, proper production methods and we are go".
 
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narf

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the thing looks awesome, and with proper power, those aerodynamics and weight, that thing would be nuts on the salt flats.

:no: Short wheelbase is no fun at high speeds.

Also, I'm surprised at the 11.9s 0-100 figure. It has 61% of the Octavia's power and 59% of its weight. It should go about as quickly. Yet, the Octavia does the trip in single digits.
 

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I think it looks awesome.
 

MacGuffin

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So in other words, it is the same trick (lie) as GM used with the Volt and the actual average consumption is 1,8l/100 km. Which is not all that impressive considering all the extra cost and technology since there has already been the 3L Lupo long ago and the current Polo Bluemotion doesn't do all that much worse either. And both of those cars are vastly more practical. In fact, how is this actually better than the previous L1 car, which, as far as I can remember, could achieve a fuel consumption around 1l/100km without lying and could also seat 2 people, albeit in less comfort. In the end of the day, the only contribution to science that this concept makes is, that adding all the heavy technological gadgetry leads to worse results that throwing all the crap away and adding lightness.

Most of the standard fuel consumption numbers of current cars are not realistic, too. They are measured in the lab, not on the road. So I really don't know what you're up against.
 
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narf

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The EU figures are realistic as long as you don't view them as average numbers. They're good-case-numbers (slightly worse than best-case, but massively better than average-case). Taking my Octavia as an example, its combined figure is 6.3l/100km. I've matched/bettered the figure on about 10% of the fillups so far. In other words, my average over a long distance can be as good as the stated figure. A shorter-distance average could be way better. For added data, the Astra claims the same combined figure of 6.3l/100km (at only three quarters the power :lol:). It has also been matched by the average of a fillup, hence is achievable in the real world.
 

MacGuffin

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That's actually pretty neat.

My uncle and I were just wondering why no one had come along with a diesel hybrid yet, considering how much more efficient they are.

Because currently hybrids are only bought in Japan and the USA.

Japan is a non-existent market for European carmakers, so they don't bother developing cars for that.

And people in the USA mostly still think diesels are stinking, smoking monsters for trucks and tractors.

Europe, meanwhile, where 40-50 % of all cars are diesels, doesn't care about hybrids at all so far.

Hence no diesel hybrids.
 

Der Stig

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Because currently hybrids are only bought in Japan and the USA.

Japan is a non-existent market for European carmakers, so they don't bother developing cars for that.

And people in the USA mostly still think diesels are stinking, smoking monsters for trucks and tractors.

Europe, meanwhile, where 40-50 % of all cars are diesels, doesn't care about hybrids at all so far.

Hence no diesel hybrids.

That. It's improving, especially since Mercedes and VW have brought out more diesels. Still, it's the logical pairing for a hybrid as many trains are diesel hybrids as well, IIRC.
 

argatoga

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The EU figures are realistic as long as you don't view them as average numbers. They're good-case-numbers (slightly worse than best-case, but massively better than average-case). Taking my Octavia as an example, its combined figure is 6.3l/100km. I've matched/bettered the figure on about 10% of the fillups so far. In other words, my average over a long distance can be as good as the stated figure. A shorter-distance average could be way better. For added data, the Astra claims the same combined figure of 6.3l/100km (at only three quarters the power :lol:). It has also been matched by the average of a fillup, hence is achievable in the real world.

Here it is the opposite. Most cars here get better millage in the real word than they do in the EPA's tests.
 

narf

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Still, it's the logical pairing for a hybrid as many trains are diesel hybrids as well, IIRC.

Every dieselelectric train is a hybrid. However, most German diesel trains use hydraulic torque converters.
 
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ninjacoco

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It reminds me of the original Honda Insight with those covered back wheels.

That design's kinda grown on me, I have to admit. It's nutty in that crazy-engineering-design-study-type way.
 
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