What happens when you refuse to pose for TSA or be sexually molested to fly.

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Blind_Io

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Cops have no situation under which such a detailed search would be required, if they suspect something they can just arrest them and perform a strip search back at the station.
And according to Terry v Ohio, performing a body-search is illegal. The cop can't just arrest someone because they think they might have something on their person, they have to have probable cause. That means the cop has to be able to articulate exactly why the person was arrested and specifically what the cop thought the person had. What you have just said is that passengers are being treated like criminals every time they get extra screening.

Well having not done it myself, i would assume you get them to bring over a supervisor and preach your case for not being Frisked, using the evidence that they are breaking the 4th if they don't comply.
And that's your problem
anecdotal evidence =/= truth
There's nothing anecdotal about the information I was referencing and which has been cited in this thread. At the same time, consider this statement with the one you made just before it. You make don't even bother with an anecdote, you just assume that someone, somewhere has a story that backs you up.
 

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yes it is. College girls and high school girls are a small percentage of the population. Even less those that have been subject to traumatizing sexual abuse which would keep them from being searched by TSA without incurring more damage.
Those girls grow up to be women who live with the aftermath of rape for their entire lives. You seem to miss the point that these are new victims, next year there will be this same number of victims added to the population, and last year the same number was added to the population. Some of these people have been victims more than once and have repeat trauma histories.

Yes, school girls are a small part of the population, but the entire female population (barring a small percentage of immigrants or home-schooled children) were school girls. Do you really think that they stop being rape victims when they graduate high school or college? These numbers don't even bring into considerate adult victims of rape or sexual assault.
 

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Those girls grow up to be women who live with the aftermath of rape for their entire lives. You seem to miss the point that these are new victims, next year there will be this same number of victims added to the population, and last year the same number was added to the population. Some of these people have been victims more than once and have repeat trauma histories.

Yes, school girls are a small part of the population, but the entire female population (barring a small percentage of immigrants or home-schooled children) were school girls. Do you really think that they stop being rape victims when they graduate high school or college? These numbers don't even bring into considerate adult victims of rape or sexual assault.
How many of them would be further traumatized by a random TSA search? And then how many of those would have similar objections to a standard frisking as well?
 
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The "Enhanced" search has not replaced regular Frisking procedure in almost all cases. I was not groped when i was frisked going through Orlando this summer.
The "grope-down" procedure was only implemented in October.
 

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How many of them would be further traumatized by a random TSA search?
Since the TSA body-search was only implemented last month it is impossible for me to have any numbers on that. According to Trauma Theory it is possible for any victim of abuse or rape to be re-victimized, not only by the procedure but the powerlessness that goes with it. TSA offers you no escape, they are the ones in control of you and your body and have all the trappings of power (uniforms, badges, threats of repercussions, etc). If the physical exam wasn't bad enough, the powerlessness is just as psychologically damaging and in many cases it is the powerlessness that causes a flashback or retraumatization.
 

jmsprovan

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And according to Terry v Ohio, performing a body-search is illegal. The cop can't just arrest someone because they think they might have something on their person, they have to have probable cause. That means the cop has to be able to articulate exactly why the person was arrested and specifically what the cop thought the person had.
If a cop believes someone is concealing something on their person then that is probable cause. They do it all the time for drug smugglers hiding product between their butt cheeks, breasts or genitals.

What you have just said is that passengers are being treated like criminals every time they get extra screening.
don't put words in my mouth.

And that's your problem
yet, there is nothing to suggest otherwise.

There's nothing anecdotal about the information I was referencing and which has been cited in this thread. At the same time, consider this statement with the one you made just before it. You make don't even bother with an anecdote, you just assume that someone, somewhere has a story that backs you up.
The stories referenced in the thread often have no evidence that they ever happened, TSA: "We have no record of this incident occurring" springs to mind.
 

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Since the TSA body-search was only implemented last month it is impossible for me to have any numbers on that. According to Trauma Theory it is possible for any victim of abuse or rape to be re-victimized, not only by the procedure but the powerlessness that goes with it. TSA offers you no escape, they are the ones in control of you and your body and have all the trappings of power (uniforms, badges, threats of repercussions, etc). If the physical exam wasn't bad enough, the powerlessness is just as psychologically damaging and in many cases it is the powerlessness that causes a flashback or retraumatization.
Holy crap man. Sure, since we can't let them not fly or I'll get neg-repped :rolleyes: they have no choice but to submit to their TSA masters.

This is getting stupid, I think I'll just sit back and watch for a while.
 

Blind_Io

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If a cop believes someone is concealing something on their person then that is probable cause. They do it all the time for drug smugglers hiding product between their butt cheeks, breasts or genitals.
A cop needs to be able to articulate a specific suspicion. A cop stopping a grandmother or 6 year old child and performing a search to see if the person has anything on his/her person without a specific and reasonable suspicion is illegal.

don't put words in my mouth.
You made the comparison, not me.

yet, there is nothing to suggest otherwise.
There's also nothing to suggest there isn't an invisible leprechaun living at the back of my fridge, that doesn't mean it's true.

The stories referenced in the thread often have no evidence that they ever happened, TSA: "We have no record of this incident occurring" springs to mind.
I think that what you mean to say is that TSA has not confirmed some of the allegations against them, and since there is no outside oversight agency and no outside accountability for TSA agents that poses a bit of a problem. However, there are plenty of anecdotal stories that are corroborated by video from observers taken on cell phones, including one taken by a reporter when his child was selected for screening and another taken by an impartial passenger when TSA decided to body-search a young boy with autism.

And naturally we should just believe TSA because no government agency embroiled in controversy would ever lie or deny events. Nope, that would never, ever happen.
 

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If a cop believes someone is concealing something on their person then that is probable cause. They do it all the time for drug smugglers hiding product between their butt cheeks, breasts or genitals.
Exactly: probable cause.

THE ACT OF BOARDING AN AIRPLANE IS NOT PROBABLE CAUSE TO BE SEARCHED

The stories referenced in the thread often have no evidence that they ever happened, TSA: "We have no record of this incident occurring" springs to mind.
Gee... uh, yeah, I can't imagine why the least credible government agency would deny the occurrence an incedent when it's in their best interest to do so.
 
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jmsprovan

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A cop needs to be able to articulate a specific suspicion. A cop stopping a grandmother or 6 year old child and performing a search to see if the person has anything on his/her person without a specific and reasonable suspicion is illegal.
We are talking about someone hiding a bomb on their person, and being searched for it. If a cop suspected such then that would be probable cause.

You made the comparison, not me.
i made no comparison, you made it for me.


There's also nothing to suggest there isn't an invisible leprechaun living at the back of my fridge, that doesn't mean it's true.
Cool, you can't think of anything so revert to childish statements to backup your claims. Bravo.

I think that what you mean to say is that TSA has not confirmed some of the allegations against them, and since there is no outside oversight agency and no outside accountability for TSA agents that poses a bit of a problem. However, there are plenty of anecdotal stories that are corroborated by video from observers taken on cell phones, including one taken by a reporter when his child was selected for screening and another taken by an impartial passenger when TSA decided to body-search a young boy with autism.

And naturally we should just believe TSA because no government agency embroiled in controversy would ever lie or deny events. Nope, that would never, ever happen.
I think you should put the tinfoil hat away in its drawer, although i understand that the government is out to get you Blind.
 
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jmsprovan

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Exactly: probable cause.

THE ACT OF BOARDING AN AIRPLANE IS NOT PROBABLE CAUSE TO BE SEARCHED
the TSA is exempt from the 4th, this was talked about 2 pages back.

Gee... uh, yeah, I can't imagine why the least credible government agency would deny the occurrence an incedent when it's in their best interest to do so.
 

Blind_Io

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We are talking about someone hiding a bomb on their person, and being searched for it. If a cop suspected such then that would be probable cause.
Why does the cop suspect this particular person? What behavior aroused the cop's suspicion? You have to be able to articulate (that means "explain in words") why this person needs to be searched.

i made no comparison, you made it for me.
Cops have no situation under which such a detailed search would be required, if they suspect something they can just arrest them and perform a strip search back at the station.
Really. I was talking about cops frisking people on the street for weapons to ensure the officer's safety as per Terry v Ohio, you were the one that mentioned arresting people to perform a search as invasive as the ones TSA does on a regular basis.

Cool, you can't think of anything so revert to bullshit statements to backup your claims. Bravo.
You don't get it. What I said was intended to highlight the absurdity of your comment which used exactly the same logic.

I think you should put the tinfoil hat away in its drawer, although i understand that the government is out to get you Blind.
I never said the government was out to get me, I said that a government agency with no oversight or accountability has no reason to tell the truth when accused of malfeasance. Wars have begun over false claims and false denials, and that was with oversight.
 
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Blind_Io

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I'm saying that it shouldn't be, in case that wasn't clear.
I agree.

For example, a DUI checkpoint is also an administrative checkpoint, yet I can refuse police the right to search my vehicle, person or possessions unless they have probable cause to do so. If they do have probable cause to search a driver they order the person out of the car, detain him away from his vehicle and perform the search without violating the person's 4th Amendment rights.
 

jmsprovan

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Why does the cop suspect this particular person? What behavior aroused the cop's suspicion? You have to be able to articulate (that means "explain in words") why this person needs to be searched.
You want me to conjure up a specific story as to why a cop would have suspicions about someone? Use your imagination, man.

That is in comparison to air travellers, how?

You don't get it. What I said was intended to highlight the absurdity of your comment which used exactly the same logic.
Is their any evidence that using a doctors note would not, in fact get you out of a Frisking?

I never said the government was out to get me, I said that a government agency with no oversight or accountability has no reason to tell the truth when accused of malfeasance. Wars have begun over false claims and false denials, and that was with oversight.
The TSA is just as accountable to the people as every other Government agency, as you as a voter have the right to elect someone who would strive to tear it down.

I'm saying that it shouldn't be, in case that wasn't clear.
well it is, so tough luck im afraid.
 

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You want me to conjure up a specific story as to why a cop would have suspicions about someone? Use your imagination, man.
Let's go with the TSA approach and just stop random people and search them.
That is in comparison to air travellers, how?
Keep going, you're almost getting the point. Air travelers are being subjected to searches that are on-par with someone being arrested for a crime.
Is their any evidence that using a doctors note would not, in fact get you out of a Frisking?
How about the TSA FAQ?
Q. Is imaging technology optional?
A. Yes, imaging technology screening is optional for all passengers. Passengers who do not wish to receive imagining technology screening will receive alternative screening, including a physical pat-down.
And this one from the TSA blog section called "Myth Busters"
Myth: Pat downs for certain individuals are limited to the head and neck.
Fact: No one is exempt. Everyone is subject to the same screening. TSA is sensitive to religious and cultural needs, but everyone must be screened effectively. Administrator Pistole echoed those sentiments on MSNBC?s Hardball recently.
The TSA is just as accountable to the people as every other Government agency, as you as a voter have the right to elect someone who would strive to tear it down.
TSA has no agency responsible for policing it's workforce and handling complaints. If you have a problem with local cops you can go to Internal Affairs, another police department (such as State Police if you have a problem with City Police) or the FBI. The FBI has an internal affairs-type agency called the Inspection Division and the Office of Professional Responsibility (OPR). So who is responsible for oversight of TSA's daily functioning?

well it is, so tough luck im afraid.
Yeah, someone is walking all over our civil rights, so let's just give up because it might be a hard fight.
 
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jmsprovan

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Keep going, you're almost getting the point. Air travelers are being subjected to searches that are on-par with someone being arrested for a crime.
That may be your point, but it was not my point in the slightest.

How about the TSA FAQ?
And this one from the TSA blog section called "Myth Busters"
Well then, we are back to "if you can't deal with it, don't fly".

TSA has no agency responsible for policing it's workforce and handling complaints. If you have a problem with local cops you can go to Internal Affairs, another police department (such as State Police if you have a problem with City Police) or the FBI. The FBI has an internal affairs-type agency called the Inspection Division and the Office of Professional Responsibility (OPR). So who is responsible for oversight of TSA's daily functioning?
You missed my point entirely.

Yeah, someone is walking all over our civil rights, so let's just give up because it might be a hard fight.
That is your opinion, and it may the opinion of angry people on the internet, but it is obviously not the opinion of the majority of air travellers. Are you telling people what they should think now, too? That would go against your usual anti-Orwellian pontificating.
 
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Blind_Io

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That may be your point, but it was not my point in the slightest.
It may not have been your intended point, but you sure argued it effectively
Well then, we are back to "if you can't deal with it, don't fly".
I'm done being nice about that point. Come up with something relevant or GTFO you damned troll.

You missed my point entirely.
Your point was to vote for politicians that are either opposed to or in favor of TSA's existence. You missed the point about daily accountability for TSA operations, of which there is none.
That is your opinion, and it may the opinion of angry people on the internet, but it is obviously not the opinion of the majority of air travellers. Are you telling people what they should think now, too? That would go against your usual anti-Orwellian pontificating.
The majority of air travelers haven't been through the "enhanced screening" and most are only seasonal and probably are only getting their first look at the procedures that were only implemented a month ago. I'm not telling people what to think, they are seeing security, I see the infringing on my civil rights - the security argument is flawed because a dedicated jihadist won't be deterred by these security protocols so we end up having to pick either our right to be secure in our persons or our right to travel freely within our own nation.

Call me nuts, but I don't think that we should have to decide between two inalienable rights.
 

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well it is, so tough luck im afraid.
Gee, what a great attitude. Are you going to say "tough luck" when the TSA invades train stations, subway stations, bus stops and city entrance roads? What will you say when the TSA is unavoidable in any facet of travel?

Well then, we are back to "if you can't deal with it, don't fly".
There are not enough facepalms in the world.

That is your opinion, and it may the opinion of angry people on the internet, but it is obviously not the opinion of the majority of air travellers.
The majority of travelers are apathetic morons.

Where did I read ... just because the majority agrees on something, that doesn't make it right? A century ago, the majority of people agreed that slavery was A-OK.
 
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