Why are F1 cars open wheel?

Cellos88GT

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Now look what you've done. Just as you had us believing you were the smartest man on earth in the other thread, you arrive with this load of rubbish...I'd say almost none of that is true...which is quite impressive given the amount you wrote...

????

Would you like to back up your statement other than saying that it's a load of rubbish?

Why would you argue that it isn't something based off tradition?

Also why would an open-wheel design not give the designer more freedom, over a closed-wheel design, to make more use of the available air flow?
 
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mpicco

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I don't get the point about those "rubbery blogs hanging out there", you must think they create huge drag, when in fact in close wheeled cars the actual turbulence created inside the wheel arches is a big problem, enough for it to force designers to make cut outs on top of the wheels:
vzJykTd8.jpg


If rules allowed them, maybe LeMans cars would actually cut off the top part of that wheel arch.

Also the front wing does both the job of creating downforce and redirecting the air so it doesn't hit the wheels full on.
front-wing.jpg


Don't know if it's tradition, must just be the fastest way to get around.
 
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Topgearfanatic

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I'm going to say weight and simplicity, having to put some bits over the wheels would overly complicate many things like punctures and would add unneeded weight.
 

Pininfarina_

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I'm going to say weight and simplicity, having to put some bits over the wheels would overly complicate many things like punctures and would add unneeded weight.

Well teams have to add ballasts anyways to fatten the car up to regulations so 4 CF arches shouldn't be a weight issue.

As described by mpicco, I too, think the open wheels are for the speed.
 

GaryC

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What about just because they're freakin' cool?
 

Sir Stiggington

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AAAHAHAHA I can't take this. Stop butchering basic aero! Covered wheels would make F1 cars HUGELY faster. You read anything about F1 aero and it will inevitably say how exposed wheels are suicidal in aerdynamic terms. They create huge drag, (a significant percentage of the total), loads of turbulence (in the wrong place, this air still has to pass over the sidepods and rear wing), and even lift (cancelling a portion out downforce). As people have said, it's about the tradition of the formula, and about how you've got to have a certain set of rules and F1 simply happens to have this one.
 

-Cpt. J.-

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If it would be allowed in the rules I am 100% sure the teams would cover the wheels.
The open wheels create alot of drag and drag kills speed both in corners and in a straight line.

Teams used to use hubcaps to improve the aerodynamics in the area of the wheels until it was banned a few years ago.
Cellos88GT you're wrong about everything you posted in this topic. The open wheels create a lot of unwanted airflow. Where the hell you get your info from??

I don't get the point about those "rubbery blogs hanging out there", you must think they create huge drag, when in fact in close wheeled cars the actual turbulence created inside the wheel arches is a big problem, enough for it to force designers to make cut outs on top of the wheels:
vzJykTd8.jpg


If rules allowed them, maybe LeMans cars would actually cut off the top part of that wheel arch.

Also the front wing does both the job of creating downforce and redirecting the air so it doesn't hit the wheels full on.
front-wing.jpg


Don't know if it's tradition, must just be the fastest way to get around.

No, you idiot, open wheels are not the fastest way to get around.
Where the hell do you get your info from?

It's the regulation of F1 thatmakes the cars open wheel, open cockpit.
If the rules would allow it F1 cars would be closed wheel, closed cockpit. In order to cut through air with maximum efficiency.
 
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Cellos88GT

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In terms of drag-coefficients, open wheel is absolutely at a disadvantage. However, look at the theoretical RedBull X1, you have the best of both worlds you have the closed wheels to minimize drag but you don't have the front fascia of a car spoiling all of the incoming air. You guys are focused too much on the performance aspect of an open-wheel design, think about the design in terms of maximizing the racing and driver performance. One can immediately see the advantages of open-wheel designs from those points of view.
 

-Cpt. J.-

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In terms of drag-coefficients, open wheel is absolutely at a disadvantage. However, look at the theoretical RedBull X1, you have the best of both worlds you have the closed wheels to minimize drag but you don't have the front fascia of a car spoiling all of the incoming air. You guys are focused too much on the performance aspect of an open-wheel design, think about the design in terms of maximizing the racing and driver performance. One can immediately see the advantages of open-wheel designs from those points of view.

If a driver needs to see the tyre to hit the apex, he or she doesn't belong in F1.
You cannot be too focused on the performance of any racing car. F1, Rally or racing bicycles...
I admit i know extremely little about aerodynamics, but seriously... you are dead wrong and too thick to accept it.

They would lose SO much cool factor though.

True. :p
 
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Cellos88GT

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If a driver needs to see the tyre to hit the apex, he or she doesn't belong in F1.

Yes cause that is the only thing that matters in racing. :rolleyes:

I admit i know extremely little about aerodynamics, but seriously... you are dead wrong and too thick to accept it.

Oh really? So you're telling me that a race car wing doesn't need to see "clean" air in order to be efficient? And that open-wheel racers don't take advantage of the increased clean air that they're exhibited to in order to maximize traction?

"In recent years most Formula One teams have tried to emulate Ferrari's 'narrow waist' design, where the rear of the car is made as narrow and low as possible. This reduces drag and maximises the amount of air available to the rear wing. The 'barge boards' fitted to the sides of cars also helped to shape the flow of the air and minimise the amount of turbulence."

http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/understanding_the_sport/5281.html

How could one shape air like that in a traditional closed wheel design? Do you not see the room for design flexibility in an open-wheel design?
 

-Cpt. J.-

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Yes cause that is the only thing that matters in racing. :rolleyes:



Oh really? So you're telling me that a race car wing doesn't need to see "clean" air in order to be efficient? And that open-wheel racers don't take advantage of the increased clean air that they're exhibited to in order to maximize traction?

"In recent years most Formula One teams have tried to emulate Ferrari's 'narrow waist' design, where the rear of the car is made as narrow and low as possible. This reduces drag and maximises the amount of air available to the rear wing. The 'barge boards' fitted to the sides of cars also helped to shape the flow of the air and minimise the amount of turbulence."

http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/understanding_the_sport/5281.html

How could one shape air like that in a traditional closed wheel design? Do you not see the room for design flexibility in an open-wheel design?

What does this have to do with the question "Why are F1 cars open wheel?" You 're changing the subject...
And Yes, you bet your ass it's true, if a driver doesn't know car contorl well enough to hit the apex of the corners without having to look at his tyres, he's not suitable for F1. Or any other professional racing series. F1 Drivers don't look at their tyres numbskull, when they go 100+ km/h through a corner they look far far ahead to see what's coming. There simply is no time to look at the wheels to see how close to the white line it is. I cannot understand why it is so hard for you to understand it. What design flexibility?? There is no such thing, the cars are slower because they must be open wheeled. Everything the aero engineers can do with a open wheeled car, they can do with a closed wheel car and more efficiently.

And again, on subject:
Open wheel race cars are slower than closed wheel race cars. Again... it's simple logic they go through the air more efficiently and the open wheels on say, Formula 1 cars, create something called drag. Drag, yes is airflow but it's unwanted airflow.
This is basicly what F1 cars would look like if the rules would not specify that the cars must be open wheeled:
http://www.weblogsinc.com/common/images/3060000000058077.JPG?0.664006127857585

Please try and understand I know it's a Le Mans car.
That car, if designed by F1 standards, is alot faster than current F1 cars.
It's only a visual aid for you to try and understand that open or closed wheel race car, doesn't matter, the front of the car would not be similar to a big block of concrete.
 
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Sir Stiggington

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Yes cause that is the only thing that matters in racing. :rolleyes:



Oh really? So you're telling me that a race car wing doesn't need to see "clean" air in order to be efficient? And that open-wheel racers don't take advantage of the increased clean air that they're exhibited to in order to maximize traction?

"In recent years most Formula One teams have tried to emulate Ferrari's 'narrow waist' design, where the rear of the car is made as narrow and low as possible. This reduces drag and maximises the amount of air available to the rear wing. The 'barge boards' fitted to the sides of cars also helped to shape the flow of the air and minimise the amount of turbulence."

http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/understanding_the_sport/5281.html

How could one shape air like that in a traditional closed wheel design? Do you not see the room for design flexibility in an open-wheel design?

You're proving my point. Open wheel ruins the airflow to the wing, creating not only drag but reducing downforce. So, true, given that the cars are open wheel, they try to take advantage of the fact they can get stuff out of the way of the rear wing. But if they had the choice, they would definitely go for closed wheel as the benefits to said airflow would hugely outweight any disadvantages. Just think about things calmly and logically.
 

Cellos88GT

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You're proving my point. Open wheel ruins the airflow to the wing, creating not only drag but reducing downforce. So, true, given that the cars are open wheel, they try to take advantage of the fact they can get stuff out of the way of the rear wing. But if they had the choice, they would definitely go for closed wheel as the benefits to said airflow would hugely outweight any disadvantages. Just think about things calmly and logically.

Here's the thing though, I never said open-wheel > closed wheel. I said the reason F1 is open-wheel is mostly due to tradition and that with an open wheel design you can take advantage of the increased usable air to increase traction. In the article I quoted, an open wheel designs can run a narrow chassis in-order to provide more air flow to the rear air package which in-turn increases its efficiency.
 

-Cpt. J.-

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Here's the thing though, I never said open-wheel > closed wheel. I said the reason F1 is open-wheel is mostly due to tradition and that with an open wheel design you can take advantage of the increased usable air to increase traction. In the article I quoted, an open wheel designs can run a narrow chassis in-order to provide more air flow to the rear air package which in-turn increases its efficiency.

Trust me I would like to think it's tradition too. But taking into consideration how fierce the competition is and how important the aerodynamics of the cars is, there's no room for feelings in this case. F1 cars are open wheeled because the rules specify it. If the teams had the choice, they would cover the wheels up. The aim is to go as fast around the track as possible.
 
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Cellos88GT

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Trust me I would like to think it's tradition too. But taking into consideration how fierce the competition is and how important the aerodynamics of the cars is, there's no room for feelings in this case. F1 cars are open wheeled because the rules specify it. If the teams had the choice, they would cover the wheels up. The aim is to go as fast around the track as possible.

but the rules are that way due to tradition...
 

Sir Stiggington

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but the rules are that way due to tradition...

It seems you either weren't being very clear before, or have changed your argument. Because that is what I was saying, while you seemed to be saying that the reason they are that way is also because open wheel designs are better/more aero efficient for the rest of the car and hence faster. Which is simply untrue.
 

Cellos88GT

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It seems you either weren't being very clear before, or have changed your argument. Because that is what I was saying, while you seemed to be saying that the reason they are that way is also because open wheel designs are better/more aero efficient for the rest of the car and hence faster. Which is simply untrue.

I didn't say that all. I said that open-wheel designs can provide increased traction since there is more freedom in directing the oncoming air.
 
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