Workers saw prisoner abuse at Guantanamo

Firecat

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http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/01/02/guantanamo/index.html

These are some of the observations made by FBI workers....some are pretty bizarre.

"Witness saw detainee draped in an Israeli flag"
"Dressing as a priest and "baptizing" a detainee"
"Subjecting a detainee to a lap dance by a topless female guard"
"Interrupting detainees' attempts to pray by putting fluid on their faces and telling them it was menstrual blood."
 

Shawn

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They're soldiers, it's okay.
 

jetsetter

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That's it? That is nothing compared to what they could have faced in their home countries. Ever been to an Afghani or Egyptian prison? Beatings and beatings, no food, physical torture, etc. Lets just say it could be quite worse. It's a prison and a military prison at that. Did you expect it to be all nice and homely? And don't start spouting off Geneva Convention this or that. Countries, European included, only follow the Geneva Convention when it is advantageous for them to do so.
 

Koenig

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That's it? That is nothing compared to what they could have faced in their home countries. Ever been to an Afghani or Egyptian prison? Beatings and beatings, no food, physical torture, etc. Lets just say it could be quite worse. It's a prison and a military prison at that. Did you expect it to be all nice and homely? And don't start spouting off Geneva Convention this or that. Countries, European included, only follow the Geneva Convention when it is advantageous for them to do so.

How are you even attempting to justify this? That's like going out with a girl who used to be sexually assaulted by her ex and beating her and saying "it's okay that I beat her, I mean, she could be back with that guy and being raped."
 

jetsetter

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How are you even attempting to justify this? That's like going out with a girl who used to be sexually assaulted by her ex and beating her and saying "it's okay that I beat her, I mean, she could be back with that guy and being raped."

No, I am saying that you guys need to grow some balls and get with reality. Prisons are not nice places and things happen, especially in military prisons. I expected it and anyone who knows anything about prisons expects it. It's a fact. So stop being so fucking shocked about ever little thing you hear. The world aint a nice place so deal with it. What was described in the article is really nothing.
 
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Koenig

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Nah, I don't think anyone here is shocked. It's just that it pisses me off when the US start spouting shit about other country's human rights issues when it's not doing too hot itself. Hyprocrasy FTL.
 

jetsetter

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Nah, I don't think anyone here is shocked. It's just that it pisses me off when the US start spouting shit about other country's human rights issues when it's not doing too hot itself. Hyprocrasy FTL.

Human rights issues include things like mass murder, ethnic cleansing, political imprisonments, etc. What is described in the article is really nothing and even more so because it has taken place in a military prison. You have to break people down to get the information you want.
 

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Human rights issues include things like mass murder, ethnic cleansing, political imprisonments, etc. What is described in the article is really nothing and even more so because it has taken place in a military prison. You have to break people down to get the information you want.

Here's the issue. I am aware that treatment in military prisons is appalingly bad. The point here is that we have compromised our moral high ground by torturing detainees, a clear violation of the cruel and unusual punishment clause of the constitution. It's not what other nations do, it's the fact that we have compromised our own values in the name of national security.
 

jetsetter

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Here's the issue. I am aware that treatment in military prisons is appalingly bad. The point here is that we have compromised our moral high ground by torturing detainees, a clear violation of the cruel and unusual punishment clause of the constitution. It's not what other nations do, it's the fact that we have compromised our own values in the name of national security.

lol. Let me guess........you thought that things like this never happened before the war on terror. :lol: Get your head out of the sand and get with reality. There have been no "noble" wars and that includes WW1 and WW2. It's war, bad things happen. That is the way it is. We didn't compromise our values because nothing has changed. It is actually more public now.

The Constitution does not apply for several reasons but I will not focus on that.
 

KaJuN

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"Subjecting a detainee to a lap dance by a topless female guard"
If that's prisoner abuse, lock me up and throw away the key!! :mrgreen:
 

Firecat

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The fact that prisoner abuse is so ubiquitous around the world and in the past doesn't make it any less criminal.
 

fbc

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The fact that prisoner abuse is so ubiquitous around the world and in the past doesn't make it any less criminal.

Took the words out of my mouth (or fingers...). The fact it's carried out elsewhere doesn't make it any more acceptable or justifiable.
 

No Boss

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[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ddc8EToGh4I[/YOUTUBE]

FOX News making light of "Waterboarding"... I love it when the guy says he would run on the platform of waterboarding, and that it's just "splashing a little water on them".
 

YF19pilot

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[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ddc8EToGh4I[/YOUTUBE]

FOX News making light of "Waterboarding"... I love it when the guy says he would run on the platform of waterboarding, and that it's just "splashing a little water on them".

Doesn't seem as bad as MSNBC (iirc) doing their little "special" on it. Had one of their guys "volunteer" for it, and made it look like little more than a swim in the kiddie pool.

My views on torture? You're not going to be able to just ask nicely to get information or just sit and ask questions. Also, somethings may or may not be defined as torture. Playing mental games, threatening violence, getting close to but not actually hurting the person may be viewed as torture as well. It's a nessicary evil, in a sense, but I see this waterboarding as being more humane than say, constant beatings, rape, cuts, electric shocks, breaking bones, etc., etc. The fear of drowning is more mental, and it doesn't leave permenant damage. Not any more than psychological stuff.
 

BlaRo

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That's it? That is nothing compared to what they could have faced in their home countries. Ever been to an Afghani or Egyptian prison? Beatings and beatings, no food, physical torture, etc. Lets just say it could be quite worse. It's a prison and a military prison at that. Did you expect it to be all nice and homely? And don't start spouting off Geneva Convention this or that. Countries, European included, only follow the Geneva Convention when it is advantageous for them to do so.
So why should America sink to their level?
 

jetsetter

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So why should America sink to their level?

Because that is what it takes. People want to be safe but they don't want to hear the dirty details of what it takes to make them safe. Torture, killing, etc is all part of what it takes. Most Americans don't realize this and live in ignorance. When the next attack occurs where do you think the fingers will be pointing?
 

Jay

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Here's the issue. I am aware that treatment in military prisons is appalingly bad. The point here is that we have compromised our moral high ground by torturing detainees, a clear violation of the cruel and unusual punishment clause of the constitution. It's not what other nations do, it's the fact that we have compromised our own values in the name of national security.

So what you are saying is that terrorists have (or should) the same constitutional rights as you and I do? And you are terribly naive to think that other "civilized" nation dont torture their detainees.

And hope someone doesnt try the "Geneva Convention" arguement, as it only applies to POW who are uniformed and represent a legitimate country as defined by the UN or NATO.
 

Jacobfox

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So what you are saying is that terrorists have (or should) the same constitutional rights as you and I do? And you are terribly naive to think that other "civilized" nation dont torture their detainees.

And hope someone doesnt try the "Geneva Convention" arguement, as it only applies to POW who are uniformed and represent a legitimate country as defined by the UN or NATO.

I don't claim that torture has never occured, nor that other nations have never tortured. Spain, for example, horribly tortured detained Jews in the 1490's. That was over 500 years ago. Admittedly, it's gone on in much more recent years, but that doesn't make it right. As long as a terrorist is on our soil, they are to be treated under our rules. The view that torture is a more effective method of extracting information than standard interrogation is also misguided. Often, torture will lead to detainees saying anything to escape the punishment of their captors (some of which is true, but much of which is false).

I don't believe that forced standing, solitary confinement, draping detainees in the American and Israeli flags, and sleep deprivation and disruption constitute torture. However, waterboarding (essentially a mock drowning), wiping "menstrual blood" on detainees and their holy books, defiling their books and causing them to violate their religious beliefs is in any way acceptable.

I don't deny what has happened in the past, but such actions hardly justify barbarism.
 

Jay

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As long as a terrorist is on our soil, they are to be treated under our rules.


So let us say in theory, that 20 terrorists affiliated with al-queda, but not sponsored by any country, pulled off a mass gassing of New Yorks subway system that resulted in 5,000 American citizens dead or injured. 10 escaped into America, 10 were captured. By your reasoning, the captured terrorists should be treated as American citizens with full constitutional rights. Answer yes or no, and your justification if you answered yes.
 
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